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Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
253 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2012 : 11:02 AM
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Why do some of you posters believe that some-one carrying a gun will shoot the bear?
Personally the only assumption I'm making is that we're talking about situations where something will be used. I don't assume anyone with bear spray or a rifle is going to use it. I put on my seat belt every time I drive my car. Am I assuming I'm going to need it? Of course not, I plan to go my entire life without getting into a serious accident just as I plan to go my entire life without being attacked by a bear. Doesn't stop me from putting on my seat belt or carrying bear spray though. The topic is strategies to use against an actual aggressive bear attack since that's the topic of the original article. I personally don't assume someone with a rifle is going to shoot a bear, I don't see anyone else assuming that either.
BTW speaking of assumptions you're the one who assumed a while back the my handle, "release" simply must be a reference to bow hunting - couldn't possibly mean anything else - and that my profile picture of the ape in "2001 A Space Odyssey" simply must be glorifying violence and couldn't possibly have any other meaning. So, like, whatever. |
Edited by - Release on 04/27/2012 11:43 AM |
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521 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2012 : 2:13 PM
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This forum is at it's best when people are giving out trip reports and at it's worst when it's discussing the "stupid behaviour" of noobs in the woods etc., with everyone competing to prove how knowledgeable they are and how stupid everyone else is. I admit I get drawn into it too and it hampers discussion.
I really don't think it's a case of posters proving how knowledgeable they are. What is important is to have these discussions so others that don't have the complete knowledge or awareness about an issue, such as this one, gain some insight as to the best or most appropriate way to go about handling them, should they arise. |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3507 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2012 : 9:18 PM
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I've been traveling in the Rockies for 43 years and have had countless bear encounters, both black bear and grizzly. I have had a few that were a little "wild and wooly" including my wife's first and only bear encounter that caused some serious controversy on this very forum.
I haven't had to spray a bear yet. I'm glad of this. It's not nice for the bear, and it means that things became far to close/violent. I would use my spray if I thought it necessary, but take using it very seriously.
Now, in the Yukon and Alaska, it's different. I suspect that it's the harsher environment and scarcer food, but I have found (my experience only...) that bears are more aggressive in those areas. We managed to move quickly enough to avoid serious encounters, but bears don't automatically head in the opposite direction in remote areas. They come to find out what you are and what you have. And they tend to be big. Really big!
Statistically, having a violent bear encounter is a rare event. Thousands of people travel thousands of kilometers through the Canadian mountain ranges every summer, and violent encounters are almost non-existent. I take care to make noise in timber, around corners and near water. I hang my food far from my tent and minimize cooking smells. I carry spray on occasion, would never carry a gun for bear protection (outside of the north), and don't consider bears high on my list of hazards. |
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521 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2012 : 06:27 AM
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Statistically, having a violent bear encounter is a rare event. Thousands of people travel thousands of kilometers through the Canadian mountain ranges every summer, and violent encounters are almost non-existent. I take care to make noise in timber, around corners and near water. I hang my food far from my tent and minimize cooking smells. I carry spray on occasion, would never carry a gun for bear protection (outside of the north), and don't consider bears high on my list of hazards.
Yes, it's highly unlikely to have a violent bear encounter. But it still does happen. People that buy a house don't expect it to burn down and is very rare event as well (likely a greater chance than a violent bear encounter due to the shear numbers involved). Yet people have home insurance, as it's a devastating event should it happen. |
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1078 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2012 : 07:12 AM
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Originally posted by path finder
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Statistically, having a violent bear encounter is a rare event. Thousands of people travel thousands of kilometers through the Canadian mountain ranges every summer, and violent encounters are almost non-existent. I take care to make noise in timber, around corners and near water. I hang my food far from my tent and minimize cooking smells. I carry spray on occasion, would never carry a gun for bear protection (outside of the north), and don't consider bears high on my list of hazards.
Yes, it's highly unlikely to have a violent bear encounter. But it still does happen. ple that buy a house don't expect it to burn down and is very rare event as well (likely a greater chance than a violent bear encounter due to the shear numbers involved). Yet people have home insurance, as it's a devastating event shoulda it happen.
equivalent.
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Originally posted by path finder
Excellent point Benoit. Even though it's highly unlikely that bear spray will ever be used, it's still a good idea to carry it. A similar analogy is owning a home and not having having home owner's insurance. Things do happen.
I think what Tinbasher is trying to get across is knowing how to behave and react around bears is far more important in helping to prevent an encounter in the first place. I agree that many people out there tend to over react or react inappropriately when they have a run in with a bear. Knowledge of bear behavior and common sense are the most important things to have out there.
You keep using homeowners insurance analogy as reason to validate carrying bear spray , but this would only be true, if one assumes that one judges the pros and cons of homeowners insurance, as opposed to bear spray, as being equivalent. I don't agree they are "similar" in this way.
I think everyone can agree with the obvious that both are judgment calls based on probabilities...yes, that is similar, as are innumerable other judgments: should I take airplanes, should I go on avalanche terrain, should I wear a seatbelt (legalites aside), should I walk down this dark alley....
.... but, there are numerous variables involved with all of those, and both of these issues, few of which overlap. A judgment on one, does not imply the same judgment on the other.
I personally would tend to agree with you that it's a good idea to carry it...IF all things were equal...they aren't for me though. On the other hand, I'd agree that homeowners insurance is almost always a good idea. I am sure many others who don't carry spray might think homeowners insurance is a good idea....the two aren't equivalent. |
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521 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2012 : 09:18 AM
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The only equivalence between carrying bear spray and having home owners insurance that I'm implying about is that both have very low risk with having something go bad, but could be potentially devastating to the person(s) involved if something does happen.
Another way of looking at it is to say why should I have home owners insurance because my house has not burned down or been vandalized in "x" # of years. It seems others have the same attitude about carrying bear spray! They have not had a violent bear encounter in "x" # of years of traveling in the woods.
Maybe a better comparison would be with a smoke detector and home alarm system, as all of these items can help prevent the appropriate event from happening in the first place. |
Edited by - path finder on 04/28/2012 09:34 AM |
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521 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2012 : 10:01 AM
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Bear spray could have saved the life of Timothy Treadwell (the Grizzly Man) and his girl friend had he been carrying it. Apparently he did at the beginning, and then stopped after he began to trust the bears. It took just one bad ass bear! And he was amongst relatively mild mannered coastal bears.
I know what he did was totally wrong and that he crossed the line with the bears. Such close contact could actually put both his life and the bears lives at greater risk. I'm just making a point about carrying bear spray. |
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Brentwood Bay, BC
216 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2012 : 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by path finder
Even if you face the bear showing predatory behavior, fighting back may be required to fend off the bear if he continues...
Were you replying to me? Because if you were I still do not see that bear as predatory but the guy as provoking the bear to check him out further by continuously moving away (quickly). The guy is acting like prey. And the couple of times that he does stop the bear rethinks what he (the bear) is doing.
Again, I don't care if people want to carry bear spray or not, or even if they want to carry a firearm or not (if they are responsible with its use). I'm saying that, that guy did not need to spray that bear if he had bear spray.
ps. I've had bears approach me like that and getting big has stopped them. Will that work ever time no; did that guy try that, doesn't appear so. |
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Brentwood Bay, BC
216 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2012 : 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by dasbin
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The guy didn't do everything wrong, but he was still acting like possible prey.
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Nice contradiction - fail. |
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521 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2012 : 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by joker
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Originally posted by path finder
Even if you face the bear showing predatory behavior, fighting back may be required to fend off the bear if he continues...
Were you replying to me? Because if you were I still do not see that bear as predatory but the guy as provoking the bear to check him out further by continuously moving away (quickly). The guy is acting like prey. And the couple of times that he does stop the bear rethinks what he (the bear) is doing.
Again, I don't care if people want to carry bear spray or not, or even if they want to carry a firearm or not (if they are responsible with its use). I'm saying that, that guy did not need to spray that bear if he had bear spray.
ps. I've had bears approach me like that and getting big has stopped them. Will that work ever time no; did that guy try that, doesn't appear so.
Any stalking behavior exhibited by a bear is considered predatory, irregardless of how the potential victim/prey behaves. He may be acting like prey, but the bear is still acting like a predator.
http://www.centerforwildlifeinformation.org/BeBearAware/BearEncounters/bearencounters.html
Read the first paragraph about predatory behavior.
If this fellow had bear spray, he likely would have felt more confident to stand his ground and could then use the spray if the bear continued to advance too close. I agree that he could have made an attempt to stand his ground, make himself big, throw items, etc... Without the spray, he likely realized that standing his ground may have meant fighting the bear off physically. In the end, it all worked out for him, as he did make it back to camp safely where the bear was unfortunately shot dead. Bear spray could have saved this bears life. |
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Brentwood Bay, BC
216 Posts |
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521 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2012 : 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by joker
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Originally posted by path finder
http://www.centerforwildlifeinformation.org/BeBearAware/BearEncounters/bearencounters.html
Read the first paragraph about predatory behavior.
I read that the first time and have seen that site before; I do not agree with it.
That guy not going into the wilderness could have saved the bears life as well.
It seems your definition of predatory behavior differs from the definition. I hear a dinner bell going off when I see that clip. I don't think think the bear is coming over to be petted or for some other reason of curiosity.
Well it is true that not being there could also have saved the bears life. He was there doing geographical mapping work. Perhaps better bear training and preparedness for workers in the bush would help save some of these animals. |
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Brentwood Bay, BC
216 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2012 : 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by path finder
In the end, it all worked out for him, as he did make it back to camp safely where the bear was unfortunately shot dead. Bear spray could have saved this bears life.
The following is copy and pasted from the youtube site:
"He gets close enough to camp where the bear can smell the food in the kitchen, he was then able to get a hold of the rifle and cap the mofo..."
The bear was shot dead by the person in the video. Who knows what happened? Who knows if a conservation officer would have felt it necessary to put down this animal?
I can make a lot of assumptions here but there is no point.
But, I will say that your argument that if the guy sprayed him that the bear could still be alive is just as valid as me saying that if that guy was not out there the baer could still be alive.
I find your argument to be rubbish. And, I'm done with this thread. I clicked on it my mistake; I thought i was going to be reading about the Broken Is. Group. |
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521 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2012 : 11:30 AM
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But, I will say that your argument that if the guy sprayed him that the bear could still be alive is just as valid as me saying that if that guy was not out there the baer could still be alive.
I'm not trying to argue about it. I just think that bear spray "could" have helped to save this bear, and possibly prevented the bear from following him back to his camp.
quote:
I'm saying that, that guy did not need to spray that bear if he had bear spray.
What about the validity of that. That is an assumption as well.
As I mentioned earlier, all I was trying to do was point out that bear spray "could" help prevent violent encounters with predatory bears.
http://safety.eas.ualberta.ca/node/13#PredatoryAttacks |
Edited by - path finder on 04/28/2012 11:41 AM |
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8 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2012 : 02:07 AM
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Originally posted by joker
quote:
Originally posted by dasbin
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The guy didn't do everything wrong, but he was still acting like possible prey.
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Nice contradiction - fail.
Uh, where is the contradiction? He did a lot of things wrong, but not everything. He could've run fast in the other direction. He could've been completely silent.
In either case he would likely be dead or seriously injured and we wouldn't have a video to watch.
Instead, he's not and we do. Tell me how that is doing everything wrong. |
Edited by - dasbin on 04/29/2012 02:11 AM |
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Hope, BC
Canada
7098 Posts |
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1078 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2012 : 05:25 AM
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Originally posted by path finder
The only equivalence between carrying bear spray and having home owners insurance that I'm implying about is that both have very low risk with having something go bad, but could be potentially devastating to the person(s) involved if something does happen.
Another way of looking at it is to say why should I have home owners insurance because my house has not burned down or been vandalized in "x" # of years. It seems others have the same attitude about carrying bear spray! They have not had a violent bear encounter in "x" # of years of traveling in the woods.
Maybe a better comparison would be with a smoke detector and home alarm system, as all of these items can help prevent the appropriate event from happening in the first place.
Right...I said that only that most minimal comparison is possible. I think we can all agree on that...it isn't controversial no? ie. Some people carry bear spray because they believe it may offer some protection against an event that has a low probability of occurring (though obviously the estimation of this likelihood varies wildly among people), but could have an undesirable consequence! They believe the pros of this action outweigh the cons.
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1078 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2012 : 05:37 AM
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Originally posted by dasbin
I am shocked by some of these responses. Especially the people saying they could never spray a bear.
By "people", I assume you mean Justa. Please be careful with broad accusations.
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Originally posted by dasbin
This is non-lethal stuff. The bear will be good as new (and, importantly, not killed by park rangers) a couple hours later.
I assume you acknowledged Tinbasher's story, you can see that your statement may not be true, and thus understand why somebody like Justa may have take the position he did.
quote:
Originally posted by dasbin
If you think people are just out there there arbitrarily spraying every bear they come across, that's ridiculous.
I'm not sure who you are referring to that said this....another thing that is good when it comes to claims about what other people have said is to quote them directly, when responding to it. Not though that a poster, has just recently admitted to spraying a bear because it was on a path he wanted to take....though I think most people are indeed not so....asinine...drunken partiers perhaps.....
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521 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2012 : 06:34 AM
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Some people carry bear spray because they believe it may offer some protection against an event that has a low probability of occurring (though obviously the estimation of this likelihood varies wildly among people), but could have an undesirable consequence! They believe the pros of this action outweigh the cons.
And you could also say the same about not carrying and using bear spray (if necessary), that there could be an undesirable consequence! I think that anyone that unfortunately was in a position where they were attacked or stalked by a bear, would appreciate having something to help defend themselves, and potentially prevent serious injury or death. |
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Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
253 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2012 : 11:26 AM
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Some people carry bear spray because they believe it may offer some protection against an event that has a low probability of occurring (though obviously the estimation of this likelihood varies wildly among people), but could have an undesirable consequence!
No offense but I really don't understand this statement. Naturally just about anything can produce undesired consequences. You could carry a rifle instead of bear spray and blow your foot off or your partners head off at the moment of truth as well. So? I don't see your point.
If you don't want to carry anything, fine that's certainly your choice and imo a perfectly viable one,but in the event of an actual bear attack it is neither safer for you OR the bear since most bears who kill/attack are hunted down and killed themselves.
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quote:
This is non-lethal stuff. The bear will be good as new (and, importantly, not killed by park rangers) a couple hours later.
I assume you acknowledged Tinbasher's story, you can see that your statement may not be true, and thus understand why somebody like Justa may have take the position he did.
Yes and if you replace the bear spray in tinbashers story with a rifle the bear would definitely have died not might've died.
There's two debates going on here:
1. When to use a deterrent against a bear (ie. is it warranted, is the user just making a knee-jerk reaction, is it just a bluff charge or is it an actual attack etc). This has nothing to do with a choice of rifle or spray since either would be the incorrect choice if there isn't actually an attack.
2. To use bear spray or a rifle, assuming an actual attack not a bluff charge.
Only the latter is relevant to the original article. |
Edited by - Release on 04/29/2012 1:33 PM |
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Study says bear spray more effective than guns
