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 Study says bear spray more effective than guns
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dasbin
Starting Member



8 Posts

 Posted - 04/26/2012 :  10:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am shocked by some of these responses. Especially the people saying they could never spray a bear.
This is non-lethal stuff. The bear will be good as new (and, importantly, not killed by park rangers) a couple hours later.
At least as importantly, you will be not dead.
If you think people are just out there there arbitrarily spraying every bear they come across, that's ridiculous. Only use the stuff if your life is in danger. Learn how to recognize a bluff charge (bear head is up, runs a bit sideways) and a real charge (straight towards you at full blast, head down to the ground).

On a philisophical note, would you seriously trade your life so as to save the bear a couple hours of pain? I'm a strong environmentalist, and a vegetarian, but I don't understand this attitude of all. The forest is not just the "bear's home." It's also home to many other animals, including humans. Just like cities are built on the bear's territory. We share the planet; the attitude that total human-animal segretation is the moral and envronmentally responsible answer is ridiculous. The environment could only suffer from a worldview that cities (which much expand to meet population demands) are "our" place alone and we can do whatever we want in them, and the woods is "their" space that we should only enter if we are willing to... what? Forgo all tools to our advantage? Clothing too? We would never truly understand the woods, for we would never truly live in it.
All animals use whatever means they have available to stay alive. Our method is our tools. We don't have sharp claws or thick flesh or 400 pounds of muscle. There is nothing wrong with fighting back with what you have when under attack. The rest of nature doesn't fight fair either.
Bears are beautiful creatures, to be respected and loved. I'm in awe every time I see one. I just think the "loved" part of things would probably fade from my mind pretty fast if he is chowing down on my neck.

I carry spray and not a gun. For me the choice is obvious. You can't carry firearms in parks anyway. If I was far from civilization, on crown land, in serious grizz country, I might also consider carrying the lightest 12 gauge I can, as a backup to my backup plan (bear spray). Would only shoot if the thing is already on top of me. Things are different up north, including the bears. Some of those grizzlies mean serious business, and contrary to popular belief, the chances of an encounter are not negligible if you're out there. It's not paranoia if you end up needing it. There's a reason park rangers carry... and most woodsmen in Canada over the past 100+ years. They're not all out to "get" the bears - they just understand the risks and want their families to expect them back alive.

Understand and learn as much as you can about bears. That's step one. It is *not* the only step if you want to minimize your chances of not coming home. It doesn't negate the need for a practical defense when conflict avoidance fails.

PS A "lucky kill shot" doesn't quite describe the way a 12 gauge slug operates. The hole it makes is huge. Anywhere near the neck, head, chest, spinal cord, or a femoral artery will drop and kill the bear before it even has the chance to feel a tinge of pain.

PPS Not really advocating guns in most circumstances. Bear spray is definitely more effective than most weapons more of the time - and it leaves the bear alive!

Edited by - dasbin on 04/26/2012 11:12 AM

tinbasher
Starting Member


aldergrove, BC
Canada

46 Posts

 Posted - 04/26/2012 :  4:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by path finder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P3a9zgzEgk

Just one example of a good reason to carry bear spray!



You would have sprayed that bear??
That curious little fuzzball that was so curious he couldn't stop following.

Get a life.
This is why I hate bear spray.

joker
Junior Member


Brentwood Bay, BC
266 Posts

 Posted - 04/26/2012 :  5:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by path finder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P3a9zgzEgk

Just one example of a good reason to carry bear spray!



Just one example why people that are not aware how to act in bear country should not go into bear country.

path finder
Intermediate Member



521 Posts

 Posted - 04/26/2012 :  5:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by joker

quote:
Originally posted by path finder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P3a9zgzEgk

Just one example of a good reason to carry bear spray!



Just one example why people that are not aware how to act in bear country should not go into bear country.



How do you figure??? That bear is showing predatory behavior for your information. How would you have reacted if you were out hiking and ran into this guy? I know it is rare to have a run in with a predatory bear, but it does happen.

tinbasher
Starting Member


aldergrove, BC
Canada

46 Posts

 Posted - 04/26/2012 :  5:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Release

"I can't imagine how many poor bluff charging bears have been sprayed in the face by some asshole who thinks he is doing himself and the bear a favor."


He is absolutely doing the bear a favor because now the bear knows humans are dangerous....and yeah, like nobody who carries a shotgun to defend themselves against bears hasn't shot one who bluff charged.

You should think more and rush to judge others less.



"If that fails I also carry a BFK."

lol. You've blown all credibility right there. You don't need either, as we've seen, inarguably, empirically all you need is bear spray. I don't think you've ever had to handle a bear situation in your entire life.


"I would never trust my life to a can of pepper spray."

Even though there are literally thousands of examples of it saving BOTH the life of the bear and the human, and very very few examples where it didn't -- AND many examples where the rifle/shotgun was useless and the shooter died anyways?

Sure, whatever. You know better than empirical reality I guess. The world is full of people who absolutely refuse to learn.


You haven't a clue.

My line of work puts me in thick bear country 200+ days a year,overnight in remote fly in tent camps.
I've interacted with so many grizzlies I can't remember them all.
For the most part they are the most curious animal I have ever dealt with and usually don't see you as a food source as they don't really know what they are looking at.

I will not argue any further as most of you are probably desk job folk who know better than I.
Instead I will tell the story of Bella,a beautiful sow grizzly who I grew quite fond of over the five years I had encounters with her.

Three years ago we were dropped off by heli in a very remote location north of Ft.Nelson, shortly after getting our packs on and starting towards our worksite we were encountered by a group of photographers who had been dropped by float plane at a nearby lake.

They immediately informed us of the "near death experience" they had that morning with a grizzly and warned us that they had to spray the bear so it would stop "tracking" them,my heart dropped into my stomach as the lake they were at is where we always see Bella.
She told me it was a good thing that her spray could shoot so far as she didn't have to get very close in order to spray the bear,odd I thought.

We pressed on and when we neared the lake we could hear a moaning and wailing sound,it soon became obvious that is was Bella,her eyes were swollen shut and she was grinding her face into the rocks and dirt and wailing in pain,covered in blood from the cuts she had inflicted on herself trying to get rid of the pain.
The smell of bear spray lingered in the air and the 40 foot long orange stripe in the grass told the story I already knew.
It turned my stomach then and even now to see such a beautiful animal in such agony.
There was nothing we could do to help so we had to leave her there as hard as it was.

Four days later on our way back to get picked up we observed two boars feeding on her carcass,I stood there and wept as I felt a sort of guilt run over me,for what reason I'm not sure,maybe just being a human and knowing humans had caused this.
I don't know what killed Bella whether she killed herself smashing her head into rocks blindly
or if the two boars had killed her in her vulnerable state.
I can say without a doubt that if I had bear spray i would of hunted that woman down and emptied in her face and eyes.


I've been charged numerous times and never shot or sprayed a bear.
I have a ten foot rule,no bear has ever crossed it.
I carry a very small 12ga. designed for people who work in the backcountry,it is loaded with the very best Brenneke slugs and I can assure you that they would stop any bear,I know people who have used them when there was no other option.

Bear spray will stop a bluff charging bear however the only thing that will stop an enraged charging bear who means you harm is death.
I have witnessed it first hand,not read it on the internet.
I don't care what any study says and people can call me ignorant all they want,I'm not the one running around pepper spraying bears for being on some trail that humans built through the bears habitat.
You people who think spraying a bear teaches them a lesson so they won't do it again are delusional,these are wild animals,not toddlers.

Flame away do gooders.
I'm done.

tinbasher
Starting Member


aldergrove, BC
Canada

46 Posts

 Posted - 04/26/2012 :  5:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by path finder

quote:
Originally posted by joker

quote:
Originally posted by path finder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P3a9zgzEgk

Just one example of a good reason to carry bear spray!



Just one example why people that are not aware how to act in bear country should not go into bear country.



How do you figure??? That bear is showing predatory behavior for your information. How would you have reacted if you were out hiking and ran into this guy? I know it is rare to have a run in with a predatory bear, but it does happen.



Predatory behavior??
You must be joking.
That is a juvenile black bear that weighs 175 pounds soaking wet.
Anyone who would of sprayed that bear should not be allowed in the woods.
Predatory??....hardly.

joker
Junior Member


Brentwood Bay, BC
266 Posts

 Posted - 04/26/2012 :  5:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by path finder

quote:
Originally posted by joker

quote:
Originally posted by path finder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P3a9zgzEgk

Just one example of a good reason to carry bear spray!



Just one example why people that are not aware how to act in bear country should not go into bear country.



How do you figure??? That bear is showing predatory behavior for your information. How would you have reacted if you were out hiking and ran into this guy? I know it is rare to have a run in with a predatory bear, but it does happen.



The same way I do when I'm out hiking (or hunting without a bear tag). Faced the bear (without eye contact) got big.

I would not have been walking away (he was nearing a jog at times) and almost continuously with my back to the bear. This guy was inviting an attack.

For your information the bear was showing "predatory behavior" because the guy was acting like prey.

ps. I would have had spray with me hiking (or hunting) but that "incident" is a long way from being a time to use it.

path finder
Intermediate Member



521 Posts

 Posted - 04/26/2012 :  5:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Even if you face the bear showing predatory behavior, fighting back may be required to fend off the bear if he continues. That is the point I was trying to make about carrying and possibly using bear spray. These attacks are actually on the increase.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110511074807.htm

path finder
Intermediate Member



521 Posts

 Posted - 04/26/2012 :  7:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tinbasher

quote:
Originally posted by path finder

quote:
Originally posted by joker

quote:
Originally posted by path finder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P3a9zgzEgk

Just one example of a good reason to carry bear spray!



Just one example why people that are not aware how to act in bear country should not go into bear country.



How do you figure??? That bear is showing predatory behavior for your information. How would you have reacted if you were out hiking and ran into this guy? I know it is rare to have a run in with a predatory bear, but it does happen.



Predatory behavior??
You must be joking.
That is a juvenile black bear that weighs 175 pounds soaking wet.
Anyone who would of sprayed that bear should not be allowed in the woods.
Predatory??....hardly.



Yes, predatory behavior.

http://www.centerforwildlifeinformation.org/BeBearAware/BearEncounters/bearencounters.html

dasbin
Starting Member



8 Posts

 Posted - 04/26/2012 :  8:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That is definitely predatory behaviour as I've ever seen it be described. It's a very hungry-looking grizz sizing up its prey and deciding whether or not to make a move. If it had decided the man was worth it, it would have stood and lowered its head for a brief second before attacking extremely quickly. Very little time to respond in that situation.
The guy didn't do everything wrong, but he was still acting like possible prey.


That was a sad story about Bella. If true, I retract my statement about spray being harmless.
That said, I'm not sure I agree that it would be totally ineffective in a real attack (not bluff charge). There are some documented cases out there, proven without a shadow of a doubt to be predatory attacks, where the spray has worked.
Bears have excellent agility and traction. They can turn on a dime even at fill tilt, and usually do when sprayed. Keep in mind the risk-assessment is likely to still be running in their brains up until the moment they sink they teeth into you and taste blood. If you're too much of a risk, they will stop. Predatory bears can and have been fought off by hand, even.

As for the BFK being ridiculous, well, at least one person has stopped an attack and killed a black bear with one while being attacked. It's better than nothing.

Spray won't always work, but neither will your shotgun. There is some fallibility in everything.

"I have witnessed it first hand,not read it on the internet." - Does this mean you have seen an incident of bear spray failure?

"You people who think spraying a bear teaches them a lesson so they won't do it again are delusional,these are wild animals,not toddlers." - I feel like this has to be a joke... right? Every mammal is capable of behavioural learning. Bears are especially intelligent about these sorts of things. It's all about risk:reward. If there's pain and no reward, there's very little point in trying the same thing again. They display similar learning patterns all the time with regards to obtaining food. They go for the easy, least-effort sources whenever possible. They can get very creative about obtaining those sources (eg the "Kamikazee" blackbears of the USA that jump from a higher branch to break the branch holding a hung bag). Intense pain is clearly a high risk indicator, and if it stops the attack, no reward is associated, either. Bear would have to be brain-damaged or about to starve in a few hours to try attacking humans after that.

Edited by - dasbin on 04/26/2012 8:19 PM

gyppo
Intermediate Member


Edmonton, AB
Canada

768 Posts

 Posted - 04/26/2012 :  10:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's an interesting story, Tinbasher. I've never heard of anything like it - probably because people who use bear spray tend to leave the areas as fast as possible.

I understand that you're critical of people using bear spray too early or in situations where no intervention is required.

I think you have to understand that most people can't identify predatory behaviour. I've been charged by a grizz once, but she turned back about 10m from me and went back to her cubs. It's quite terrifying, and I can identify with someone who panics when a large animal comes at them. In our society, it's something that never happens (unless you're a meat head who likes to pick bar fights); we just aren't used to it and we aren't "trained" to react to that kind of threat.

But most importantly, I bet only a handful of people have actually gone after a sprayed bear to see how it was doing. Pepper spray is used to control crowds by police, and by association we imagine that it's harmless. This thread seems to point to the fact that it is indeed more harmful than what most people think.

I'm not confident in my ability to hit a bear in the brain, shoulder or spine at any distance, even 10 feet, under that kind of pressure. And because of that, I don't carry a rifle in the bush. Instead I carry bear spray which I KNOW I can hit a bear's face with. Is it the best solution? maybe not. But given the likelihood that I run into a grizzly, which is low, and the likelihood that that grizz charges, even lower, combined with predatory behaviour (even lower), The likelihood of a bear becoming a Bella is very small.

B

quote:
Originally posted by tinbasher

quote:
Originally posted by Release

"I can't imagine how many poor bluff charging bears have been sprayed in the face by some asshole who thinks he is doing himself and the bear a favor."


He is absolutely doing the bear a favor because now the bear knows humans are dangerous....and yeah, like nobody who carries a shotgun to defend themselves against bears hasn't shot one who bluff charged.

You should think more and rush to judge others less.



"If that fails I also carry a BFK."

lol. You've blown all credibility right there. You don't need either, as we've seen, inarguably, empirically all you need is bear spray. I don't think you've ever had to handle a bear situation in your entire life.


"I would never trust my life to a can of pepper spray."

Even though there are literally thousands of examples of it saving BOTH the life of the bear and the human, and very very few examples where it didn't -- AND many examples where the rifle/shotgun was useless and the shooter died anyways?

Sure, whatever. You know better than empirical reality I guess. The world is full of people who absolutely refuse to learn.


You haven't a clue.

My line of work puts me in thick bear country 200+ days a year,overnight in remote fly in tent camps.
I've interacted with so many grizzlies I can't remember them all.
For the most part they are the most curious animal I have ever dealt with and usually don't see you as a food source as they don't really know what they are looking at.

I will not argue any further as most of you are probably desk job folk who know better than I.
Instead I will tell the story of Bella,a beautiful sow grizzly who I grew quite fond of over the five years I had encounters with her.

Three years ago we were dropped off by heli in a very remote location north of Ft.Nelson, shortly after getting our packs on and starting towards our worksite we were encountered by a group of photographers who had been dropped by float plane at a nearby lake.

They immediately informed us of the "near death experience" they had that morning with a grizzly and warned us that they had to spray the bear so it would stop "tracking" them,my heart dropped into my stomach as the lake they were at is where we always see Bella.
She told me it was a good thing that her spray could shoot so far as she didn't have to get very close in order to spray the bear,odd I thought.

We pressed on and when we neared the lake we could hear a moaning and wailing sound,it soon became obvious that is was Bella,her eyes were swollen shut and she was grinding her face into the rocks and dirt and wailing in pain,covered in blood from the cuts she had inflicted on herself trying to get rid of the pain.
The smell of bear spray lingered in the air and the 40 foot long orange stripe in the grass told the story I already knew.
It turned my stomach then and even now to see such a beautiful animal in such agony.
There was nothing we could do to help so we had to leave her there as hard as it was.

Four days later on our way back to get picked up we observed two boars feeding on her carcass,I stood there and wept as I felt a sort of guilt run over me,for what reason I'm not sure,maybe just being a human and knowing humans had caused this.
I don't know what killed Bella whether she killed herself smashing her head into rocks blindly
or if the two boars had killed her in her vulnerable state.
I can say without a doubt that if I had bear spray i would of hunted that woman down and emptied in her face and eyes.


I've been charged numerous times and never shot or sprayed a bear.
I have a ten foot rule,no bear has ever crossed it.
I carry a very small 12ga. designed for people who work in the backcountry,it is loaded with the very best Brenneke slugs and I can assure you that they would stop any bear,I know people who have used them when there was no other option.

Bear spray will stop a bluff charging bear however the only thing that will stop an enraged charging bear who means you harm is death.
I have witnessed it first hand,not read it on the internet.
I don't care what any study says and people can call me ignorant all they want,I'm not the one running around pepper spraying bears for being on some trail that humans built through the bears habitat.
You people who think spraying a bear teaches them a lesson so they won't do it again are delusional,these are wild animals,not toddlers.

Flame away do gooders.
I'm done.

ClubTread Supporter

Aqua Terra
Advanced Member

canine loving, machete-toting bushwhacking lake seeker, Indiana Jones hat-wearing off-road 4x4 guru

Mission, BC
Canada

7687 Posts

 Posted - 04/26/2012 :  10:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
some serious WOW factor going on here

path finder
Intermediate Member



521 Posts

 Posted - 04/26/2012 :  11:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Excellent point Benoit. Even though it's highly unlikely that bear spray will ever be used, it's still a good idea to carry it. A similar analogy is owning a home and not having having home owner's insurance. Things do happen.

I think what Tinbasher is trying to get across is knowing how to behave and react around bears is far more important in helping to prevent an encounter in the first place. I agree that many people out there tend to over react or react inappropriately when they have a run in with a bear. Knowledge of bear behavior and common sense are the most important things to have out there.

Edited by - path finder on 04/26/2012 11:49 PM

DCIPHER
Senior Member



1080 Posts

 Posted - 04/27/2012 :  03:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originhlly posted by gyppo

That's an interesting story, Tinbasher. I've never heard of anything like it - probably because people who use bear spray tend to leave the areas as fast as possible.



[/quote]

I have no doubt that Tinbasher's story has played out more than once. It is amazing to me just how thoughtless we can be about the repercussions we have on animals, as well as the potential for suffering our "harmless" actions might inflict on them. Good as new in a little bit....my GOD how can somebody say that assuredly?? If you're gonna pull that trigger, and have ANY brains and/or heart at all, you better be sure it's necessary.

Thank you for sharing that story Tinbasher. I think your points are excellent....and that you really know what you're talking about.

Edited by - DCIPHER on 04/27/2012 03:31 AM

tinbasher
Starting Member


aldergrove, BC
Canada

46 Posts

 Posted - 04/27/2012 :  06:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dasbin

That is definitely predatory behaviour as I've ever seen it be described. It's a very hungry-looking grizz sizing up its prey and deciding whether or not to make a move. If it had decided the man was worth it, it would have stood and lowered its head for a brief second before attacking extremely quickly. Very little time to respond in that situation.
The guy didn't do everything wrong, but he was still acting like possible prey.


That was a sad story about Bella. If true, I retract my statement about spray being harmless.
That said, I'm not sure I agree that it would be totally ineffective in a real attack (not bluff charge). There are some documented cases out there, proven without a shadow of a doubt to be predatory attacks, where the spray has worked.
Bears have excellent agility and traction. They can turn on a dime even at fill tilt, and usually do when sprayed. Keep in mind the risk-assessment is likely to still be running in their brains up until the moment they sink they teeth into you and taste blood. If you're too much of a risk, they will stop. Predatory bears can and have been fought off by hand, even.

As for the BFK being ridiculous, well, at least one person has stopped an attack and killed a black bear with one while being attacked. It's better than nothing.

Spray won't always work, but neither will your shotgun. There is some fallibility in everything.

"I have witnessed it first hand,not read it on the internet." - Does this mean you have seen an incident of bear spray failure?

"You people who think spraying a bear teaches them a lesson so they won't do it again are delusional,these are wild animals,not toddlers." - I feel like this has to be a joke... right? Every mammal is capable of behavioural learning. Bears are especially intelligent about these sorts of things. It's all about risk:reward. If there's pain and no reward, there's very little point in trying the same thing again. They display similar learning patterns all the time with regards to obtaining food. They go for the easy, least-effort sources whenever possible. They can get very creative about obtaining those sources (eg the "Kamikazee" blackbears of the USA that jump from a higher branch to break the branch holding a hung bag). Intense pain is clearly a high risk indicator, and if it stops the attack, no reward is associated, either. Bear would have to be brain-damaged or about to starve in a few hours to try attacking humans after that.



A very hungry looking grizz??
Really?
That is a juvenile black bear maybe 2 years old.

I would have charged that bear and sent him packing.

path finder
Intermediate Member



521 Posts

 Posted - 04/27/2012 :  06:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
A very hungry looking grizz??
Really?
That is a juvenile black bear maybe 2 years old.

I would have charged that bear and sent him packing.



That is the typical profile for a predatory bear. They usually are juvenile males that often have a hard time finding enough food.

It may be easy for a large male person to take on a bear that size, that may not be the case for a smaller person. If the bear is persistent, it could come down to fighting it off. That's where it would be advantageous to have bear spray.

http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/bear-spray2.htm

quote:
What can be said for bullets? They don't always thwart an attack. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service investigated human and bear encounters from 1992 to 2005 and found that people who defended themselves with firearms were injured about 50 percent of the time by the bear. People who used the bear spray escaped injury 98 percent of the time, and the few injuries they suffered were far less severe than those in the gun-toting realm. Why? Because it's difficult to stop a bear with a gun and wounded bears are more likely to become even more aggressive.

Another study was performed by Thomas Smith, a bear biologist from Brigham Young University. After analyzing 20 years of bear incidents, he found that bear spray was effective 92 percent of the time, compared to 67 percent for guns. Add to this that you can't bring guns into many national parks, and it seems like the spray is the best way to go.

Edited by - path finder on 04/27/2012 06:51 AM

Release
Junior Member


Edmonton, Alberta
Canada

297 Posts

 Posted - 04/27/2012 :  08:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
You haven't a clue.


No, you haven't a clue about me or my experiences.

quote:
My line of work puts me in thick bear country 200+ days a year,overnight in remote fly in tent camps.
I've interacted with so many grizzlies I can't remember them all.
For the most part they are the most curious animal I have ever dealt with and usually don't see you as a food source as they don't really know what they are looking at.



Don't remotely care. If I was a mathematician and told you 2 + 7 = -65.8 I'd be wrong no matter how many degrees I have. Your contention is that somehow it's more humane to shoot a bear rather than spray it and that's ridiculous no matter how much experience you claim to have....which is probably why you've spent the past 3-4 posts backpedalling from that contention while telling everyone else they don't know shit -- when in fact it's you who doesn't know shit about who you're speaking to. Your other contention is that people are always spraying a bear when it isn't necessary and I find that hard to believe. Bear spray only reaches out 10' and generally speaking that's 10' too close already. Not to mention you don't actually have to hit the bear hard with the spray for it to get the point and retreat, unlike a poorly aimed gunshot would which would lead to a long painful death as well. For every bear who died because it was sprayed unnecessarily I am quite certain there are 20 bears who died many painful hours after being shot unnecessarily.

quote:
I will not argue any further as most of you are probably desk job folk who know better than I.


I see. So your asinine assumption of my experiences is your proof that shooting a bear dead is better than spraying it. I see. Very compelling, but completely irrelevant. I do as a matter of fact have a desk job....now. But I spent my life growing up (adult life as well, from about 16-32) in Ft.Nelson BC and the Yukon hunting, hiking and camping and I've had plenty of experiences with bears, (well only about 12-15 discussion-worthy encounters to put a number on it, not including seeing them at the dump, etc.) and fortunately I've never had to deal with more than one bluff charge. Usually what happens is I hear a rustling in the bush turn to look and I see a bears ass running from me full speed. Your one story, as sad as it may be, is hardly the end-all-be-all of bear experiences and any bear spray over shooting-them-dead discussion.


The bottom line is if everyone carried a rifle instead of bear spray instead of the occasional bear being sprayed when it didn't need to be you'd have a bear SHOT when it didn't need to be. That much is plain.

quote:
I carry a very small 12ga. designed for people who work in the backcountry,it is loaded with the very best Brenneke slugs and I can assure you that they would stop any bear,I know people who have used them when there was no other option.


It's 100% impossible for you to ensure that. Fact of the matter is one need not look any farther than WWII to find countless stories of people shot once, twice, three times, even getting a hand of foot blown of and they can STILL fight, subsequently there's no way to guarantee that will work with a bear. There are no guarantees in these situations at all and anyone with as much experience as you claim to have would know that. On the other hand, even though there are also no guarantees with bear spray either the fact is any enraged animal (bear, human,even an elephant) who suddenly cannot breath, smell or see and whose eyes, nose throat and lungs are in intense pain will be incapacitated and will not continue an attack even if it wanted to.


quote:
I don't care what any study says and people can call me ignorant all they want,I'm not the one running around pepper spraying bears for being on some trail that humans built through the bears habitat.


Translation: "I didn't bother to read the study". Oh and BTW I've never sprayed a bear either and your entire argument seems to rely on people running around in the bush after bears trying to spray them. Ridiculous. Someone here yakking about spraying a bear because they were on a trail they wanted to use isn't the norm by a long shot. Carrying bear spray or not the vast majority of people out there will avoid the bear rather than run up and spray it, that's ridiculous, and ridiculous examples is what you seem to need to rely on before you even sound like you have a point.

It's not a study in the lab. It's 20 years of real aggressive bear encounters (read: bear attacks) which makes the experiences you brag about near microscopic in comparison.

Um, flame on.

Edited by - Release on 04/27/2012 10:13 AM

HagensborgViking
Junior Member


Victoria, BC
Canada

461 Posts

 Posted - 04/27/2012 :  10:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Christ, took long enough for this thread to get good. Damn near had to go hiking.

Release
Junior Member


Edmonton, Alberta
Canada

297 Posts

 Posted - 04/27/2012 :  10:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I dunno. I see a lot of flame wars on this forum starting up not so much because of the topic at hand but because of the immature one-upmanship that starts up with people claiming to be more "outdoorsy" than everyone else on the planet. I don't exclude myself from falling into that trap either. I made the same assumptions about tinman over there and I admit I was being rash.

This forum is at it's best when people are giving out trip reports and at it's worst when it's discussing the "stupid behaviour" of noobs in the woods etc., with everyone competing to prove how knowledgeable they are and how stupid everyone else is. I admit I get drawn into it too and it hampers discussion.

I apologize for my rant, and despite our argument I apologize to tinbasher as well since I have to man-up and admit I made the same ridiculous assumptions about him in my previous post to him.

Edited by - Release on 04/27/2012 10:28 AM

cambium
Advanced Member



3022 Posts

 Posted - 04/27/2012 :  10:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
1/ Why do some of you posters believe that some-one carrying a gun will shoot the bear?!
Not true, just the confidence factor is keenly felt by many predators and they often avoid that person.
At some times when lurked by big bears and being followed either out of stupid-curiousity or upwind factor, a shot into a nearby heavy stump or trunk will suffice to shoo that ursa away real good. The sound is enough to bug them.

** there is an emerging valid train of thought that "roughing up" caught problem bears is a good incentive to the bear to never ever wander near camps or suburban settings again, a type of mild Guantamino-treatment under the auspices of wildlife officials.
Bear lives, people are happy.
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