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Port Moody, BC
Canada
563 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 07:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by brucew
but I have had to adjust my driving style to accommedate the no scratch policy
I think this is what a lot of off road noobs don't realize, that in BC they are going to scratch the hell out of their vehicle once they go into the woods. It's not a big deal if a real off road vehicle is driven, 'cause then it just adds character. But for a little pretty Forester or other CUV, it would be pain and tears to see it get all scratched up. So in the end, they're limiting themselves even more where they can go. |
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153 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 08:31 AM
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| Misleading topic, no mention of real 4x4. So I'll start. My F-150 has never let me down, and it is in 4x4 every day. jm2c. |
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1448 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 08:40 AM
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Well I will have to go over the videos. I was sure one of the three videos was independent. Never less the Crv is very limited in the Awd department. As I posted above it is a FWD with a rear on demand system that has changed very little over the years. beyond traction control and solenoid controlled rear demand system.
The Crv again is FWD and has open diffs front and rear. Which means if one wheel L To R looses traction the other side will not receive power and you will remain stuck. And the powertrain can not control power to any wheel in paticular.
I have had alot off pissed of customers complain last winter there crvs got stuck in the snow. And had one front and one rear wheel spinning.
Unfortunately the Crv is very limited and a subarus Awd is totally different and more compatible to the SH Awd that Acura has.
I think Honda went another route and went with fuel economy over true Awd performance. As the system is on demand while the subarus is all the time.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hiker
Interesting thread. Since this report was funded by Subaru I wonder if it is a bit biased ? Okay so here’s my story.
I have a Honda CRV 2008 It does have vehicle assist which, you can turn on or off.
I may have to do some back road testing but this is what I have noticed. I take two hills on the way home one 20th ave heading west to 10th., in New West and the other 8th just past MacBride heading north.
I have noticed that on those soaking wet days we get, that when stopped on the hill if I give it a bit too much gas I get wheel spin from the front. It is both wheels as the CVR will torque to the right . Within a second or so I can feel the back wheels drive (the feeling is very definite) , the front end grabs , the spin stops and I launch forward. Both locations are I would guess a 15% grade min. I won’t call B.S. on this one but I will try to get into some steep dirt hills and see what it does.
Having said that I used to own a 2 wheel drive Chev P.U. with a good set of Firestone A/T’s . I went a number of places that 4x4’s went . I just took my time and picked my route .
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Smurf Village, BC
Canada
1533 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 10:18 AM
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quote:
Justa Posted - 09/07/2012 : 08:31 AM
Misleading topic, no mention of real 4x4. So I'll start. My F-150 has never let me down, and it is in 4x4 every day. jm2c.
The discussion has been all about AWD, not 4x4, it's true.
So, for anyone else reading this, here is the skinny in layman's language. True 4x4 simply means all 4 wheels turn at the same speed at the same time. So, none of the crazy spinning wheel problems (of AWD) when one wheel is in the air (or on ice), due to all the power being diverted away from the wheel that's still touching the ground.
But, 4x4 has disadvantages:
* fuel economy while engaged is not good
* can't/shouldn't use it on pavement (normally, the outer tire would get to rotate slightly faster than the inner tire when turning, but not in 4WD mode - since pavement has lots of friction, the locked wheel rotation is fighting to try to spin at the same rate while pavement is forcing a different rotation rate). |
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Smurf Village, BC
Canada
1533 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 10:33 AM
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quote:
johngenx Posted - 09/06/2012 : 10:16 AM
The Jeep, especially the Rubicon, is a very capable vehicle. I'd love to own one, but I just can't justify tying up $20K in a vehicle that I'd use in a limited fashion.
Agreed.
My solution was to buy a 2000 Suzuki Vitara (equiv to Chevy Tracker) for $5K. I put in $3K in mods (and another $2K in repairs...) for a grand total of $10K. I now have a supremely capable offroad vehicle, with equivalent fuel economy to my old Honda Accord. |
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 opinionated-stove huggin'-fleece wearin'-arse burnin' hill virgin
Here
Canada
4643 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 11:38 AM
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Yes 4x4's are a tougher vehicle that can get you through some pretty rough terrain that an AWD cannot. If my job depended on my getting somewhere where I needed a real 4x4, I'd probably buy one. Most of us use our vehicles on pavement for non-recreational purposes at least 90% of the time or more. Even when we're heading out to the backcountry, most roads (even forestry ones) can easily be done without a 4x4. I buy my vehicle based on what I'm going to use it for the majority of my time. For me an AWD makes more sense...it gives me better traction in the winter and on some dirt than a standard 2WD, offers me better gas mileage than a 4x4, and is better for an all around the town vehicle too.
If I had money to burn and spent more time outdoors, I'd love to own an old Toyota Landcruiser (my idea of the perfect 4x4). I wouldn't care a bit about the cosmetics because it's main purpose would be for driving to areas I couldn't take my town vehicle.
I owned a Subi Forester and I loved it for it's ability to multitask. It had great traction however it was underpowered and the clearance wasn't high enough for many roads. It got me to most of the places I intended to go so it wasn't a big deal. My RAV has slightly more power and clearance but not quite the amount of traction my Subi had...neither could get me places some 4x4s can go but I don't care...I buy based on the big picture not low percentage uses. |
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1448 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 11:46 AM
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Well put guntis but the issue is...
Some manufactures do this..
Confusing people......
Found this pretty funny,
Damn hamsters power the CRV
http://crv.honda.com.au/about-the-car_performance-economy.aspx
quote:
Originally posted by guntis
quote:
Justa Posted - 09/07/2012 : 08:31 AM
Misleading topic, no mention of real 4x4. So I'll start. My F-150 has never let me down, and it is in 4x4 every day. jm2c.
The discussion has been all about AWD, not 4x4, it's true.
So, for anyone else reading this, here is the skinny in layman's language. True 4x4 simply means all 4 wheels turn at the same speed at the same time. So, none of the crazy spinning wheel problems (of AWD) when one wheel is in the air (or on ice), due to all the power being diverted away from the wheel that's still touching the ground.
But, 4x4 has disadvantages:
* fuel economy while engaged is not good
* can't/shouldn't use it on pavement (normally, the outer tire would get to rotate slightly faster than the inner tire when turning, but not in 4WD mode - since pavement has lots of friction, the locked wheel rotation is fighting to try to spin at the same rate while pavement is forcing a different rotation rate).
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Edited by - camshaft on 09/07/2012 11:57 AM |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1014 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 12:04 PM
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quote:
So, for anyone else reading this, here is the skinny in layman's language. True 4x4 simply means all 4 wheels turn at the same speed at the same time. So, none of the crazy spinning wheel problems (of AWD) when one wheel is in the air (or on ice), due to all the power being diverted away from the wheel that's still touching the ground.
But, 4x4 has disadvantages:
* fuel economy while engaged is not good
* can't/shouldn't use it on pavement (normally, the outer tire would get to rotate slightly faster than the inner tire when turning, but not in 4WD mode - since pavement has lots of friction, the locked wheel rotation is fighting to try to spin at the same rate while pavement is forcing a different rotation rate).
Thats not true, a 4x4 in high range is no different than awd with no traction control, 50 50 split front to rear. Wheel turning the fastest gets the power. Thats why flex is so important for unlocked 4x4...need to keep that wheel on the ground and not spinning.
A 4x4 and an AWD with the same engine will have better mileage than the AWD because you only power the rear under normal driving conditions.
Funny there is so much confusion
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Edited by - J Mace on 09/07/2012 12:06 PM |
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Smurf Village, BC
Canada
1533 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 12:38 PM
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quote:
Thats not true, a 4x4 in high range is no different than awd with no traction control
Hold on, are we talking about the same thing here? If differentials are locked, then tires don't spin independently, right? I suppose you're comparing 4WD High with limited slip differential to AWD. Just trying to clarify without getting complicated... |
Edited by - guntis on 09/07/2012 1:22 PM |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1133 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 3:23 PM
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I just got a new subie (MT) last year. I had several needs to fulfill:
1. Fuel economy.
2. Interior space.
3. Snow ability.
4. Off-Road ability.
5. Fun to Drive.
6. Wife likes to drive it.
7. Lifespan (hopefully long)
8. Ease of modification for down the road.
9. Resale value
10. Price
What I've seen so far:
Fuel economy - Excels at 100 km/h on highway. Truly great mileage. You won't get advertised city driving mileage.
Interior Space - Pretty darn good for small SUV. With two car seats in the back, things are tight when packing for a wknd trip but doable. The thule makes things even easier.
Snow - Soooo good....sooooo fun. Except for deep crusty stuff, been stuck a couple times.
Off-Road - Not bad. If I'd gotten the AT instead of the MT it'd be even better, but I've been impressed so far. I figure it'll get me 75% of the way up most roads anyway and I can walk the rest.
Fun - Yessir...I like the added control and punch of the MT. I've always been a stick guy and couldn't bear to go for an AT.
Wife loves it
Lifespan - Based on reputation alone. New engine in this subie compared to previous years so I hope it lasts.
Mods - I've added skid plates and will upgrade to more off-road capable tires but not so much as to hurt my mileage in 5 years when my tires quit. I'll add a 2 inch lift kit and king springs or what's available in about 5 years if we still have it and like it.
Resale - If we need to sell it, subie one of the best for resale.
Price - More than a new Patriot with 4 by 4 capabilities, similar to a Grand Vitara.
Just my observations thus far. |
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Port Moody, BC
Canada
563 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 4:45 PM
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quote:
Thats not true, a 4x4 in high range is no different than awd with no traction control, 50 50 split front to rear.
They are different. An AWD doesn't have a central locking differential, while a 4x4 does. That's why you can drive an AWD on pavement, but not a 4x4. |
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1448 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 4:57 PM
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I'm not exactly sure how you can say this J Mace ?
As saying AWD can mean so many different style systems as well very few AWD systems are direct drive as 4x4.
If you used subi as example well i'm sure its a rare occasion that it has 50-50 split. As its always adjusting power output to the wheel that needs it.
quote:
Originally posted by J Mace
Thats not true, a 4x4 in high range is no different than awd with no traction control,
Well I'm not sure why you would say this?
As it makes no sense as most 4x4 are larger, heavier, stronger and have higher drive line drag. Compared to a vehicle with AWD that are lighter and have lighter duty components.
quote:
Originally posted by J Mace
A 4x4 and an AWD with the same engine will have better mileage than the AWD because you only power the rear under normal driving conditions.
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Edited by - camshaft on 09/07/2012 5:01 PM |
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North Vancouver, BC
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 7:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by thecamel
I just got a new subie (MT) last year. I had several needs to fulfill:
1. Fuel economy. I get 25 city highway mpg and 35 average highway only
2. Interior space. Reasonable
3. Snow ability. yup I like that part except in snow up a hill with a depth of 6"
4. Off-Road ability. Sort of good except for short deep ditches
5. Fun to Drive. Seats are a pain for long drives.
6. Wife likes to drive it. ------------
7. Lifespan (hopefully long) Things that subie has kept hidden is the head gasket problem and catalytic converter burn outs.
8. Ease of modification for down the road. Upping the suspension on a subie is not advised as it puts strain on the drive train ( yes it depends on who you ask )
9. Resale value Pathetic as it drops quickly in the first four years and slows down in the fifth. Another thing is MT drops your resale value by a thousand.
10. Price Buy used and something you can modify without troubles.
What I've seen so far:
Fuel economy - Excels at 100 km/h on highway. Truly great mileage. You won't get advertised city driving mileage. Truly great mileage? depends on what you were driving before this..
Interior Space - Pretty darn good for small SUV. With two car seats in the back, things are tight when packing for a wknd trip but doable. The thule makes things even easier. Thule is also adding to wind resistance
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canine loving, machete-toting bushwhacking lake seeker, Indiana Jones hat-wearing off-road 4x4 guru
Surrey Hole, BC
Canada
6868 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 8:58 PM
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cant really add much proper input here
but it sure sems like a touchy topic for many
full on trucks can tackle harsh terrain if driver is seasoned
for example, lately, the few people that drove blowdown pass did a good job of getting there, and climbing some easy ledges and navigating tight spots.
Its rated as an easy stock with running boards type road by 4x4 club standards.. but can make regulars white knuckled, especially if running single
this would be considered easy simple route in open diffs 2 or 4 wheel drive, not stock suby terrains though. A CRV or RAV4 can dot it with driver skills. Lockers certainly NOT NEEDED
This route is just an example, ratings are like scrambles. some think easy is hard., and some think moderate hard is easy.
with my old truck I run difficult routes in near stock fashion,
many modified trucks ran the same route, and asked for help or stopped and quit.
A second vehicle with recovery gear surely helps in questionable situations, but most of us dont have 4x4 partners.
Which would I buy?
Impossible question
If you win the 6/49 have fun  |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1133 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 9:03 PM
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by thecamel
I just got a new subie (MT) last year. I had several needs to fulfill:
1. Fuel economy. I get 25 city highway mpg and 35 average highway only
2. Interior space. Reasonable
3. Snow ability. yup I like that part except in snow up a hill with a depth of 6"
4. Off-Road ability. Sort of good except for short deep ditches
5. Fun to Drive. Seats are a pain for long drives.
6. Wife likes to drive it. ------------
7. Lifespan (hopefully long) Things that subie has kept hidden is the head gasket problem and catalytic converter burn outs.
8. Ease of modification for down the road. Upping the suspension on a subie is not advised as it puts strain on the drive train ( yes it depends on who you ask )
9. Resale value Pathetic as it drops quickly in the first four years and slows down in the fifth. Another thing is MT drops your resale value by a thousand.
10. Price Buy used and something you can modify without troubles.
What I've seen so far:
Fuel economy - Excels at 100 km/h on highway. Truly great mileage. You won't get advertised city driving mileage. Truly great mileage? depends on what you were driving before this..
Interior Space - Pretty darn good for small SUV. With two car seats in the back, things are tight when packing for a wknd trip but doable. The thule makes things even easier. Thule is also adding to wind resistance
I drove a 4 cylinder Patriot. Not sure if you have the 2011 but my mileage on the highway at a maintained 100km/h is good. Comparatively of course...not to a Fit or anything like that.
Ya,,but sometimes you just need the space....wind or no wind.
I forgot to add safety to that list.
i know of several people who have installed 1 to 2 inch lift kits and their subs have lasted five year sso far after installation with no problems...... |
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Smurf Village, BC
Canada
1533 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 9:23 PM
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quote:
Aqua Terra Posted - 09/07/2012 : 8:58 PM
This route is just an example, ratings are like scrambles. some think easy is hard., and some think moderate hard is easy.
Yep, I'll be the first to admit that my vehicle is more capable than I am. |
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canine loving, machete-toting bushwhacking lake seeker, Indiana Jones hat-wearing off-road 4x4 guru
Surrey Hole, BC
Canada
6868 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 9:49 PM
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probably
2 trucks here that will likley go further than I would like. but then there is the risk factor of geting back out..or getting into a serious situation, has happened many times..
I guess sometimes having a less capable truck will also avoid getting into unwanted terrain. |
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north van, bc
Canada
949 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2012 : 9:49 PM
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adding more confusion not all SUVs or pickups are 4x4, some are awd. I know some of the older dodges and chevs pick ups and suvs you could chose which system you want.
my jeep has both. which only jeep has, and only some do. my lever has 4 places. 2wd high, 4wd full time (awd, can use on road), 4wd part time (4x4, bitch to turn on cement), 4wd low
I don't think my gas milage changes between 2 and 4. all the gears, driveshafts, diffs etc are still rotating and adding friction to the system either way. |
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Hope, BC
Canada
7130 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2012 : 04:41 AM
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I was always told if I want to destroy my transfer case, drive my chevy truck in 4x4 on dry pavement. Putting worn or used tires on the truck (different wear on tire diameters front and back)can also be hard on it too. I've experienced bind on dry roads in 4x4 before and it sure isn't healthy for it, you can feel and hear it, I don't do it. Other makes and models and systems on other vehicles are different.
My older chevy had: 4x4Hi, 4x4Low, 2WD, N
My newer chevy now has: Automatic 4x4, 4x4Hi, 4x4Low, 2WD, N |
Edited by - AcesHigh on 09/08/2012 04:43 AM |
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1448 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2012 : 5:56 PM
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I forgot about that system Smac
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_four-wheel-drive_systems
Selec-Trac
4Hi" setting the drive shafts were coupled together using a viscous-type coupler that works the same way as a viscous limited-slip differential does; which allowed the vehicle to be driven in "4Hi" on dry pavement. It was used from 1983 to 1991 in some applications.
Great option to have as in most situations 4Hi you would want AWD type ability on dry payment
quote:
Originally posted by smac
adding more confusion not all SUVs or pickups are 4x4, some are awd. I know some of the older dodges and chevs pick ups and suvs you could chose which system you want.
my jeep has both. which only jeep has, and only some do. my lever has 4 places. 2wd high, 4wd full time (awd, can use on road), 4wd part time (4x4, bitch to turn on cement), 4wd low
I don't think my gas milage changes between 2 and 4. all the gears, driveshafts, diffs etc are still rotating and adding friction to the system either way.
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The Real truth about AWD and 4x4
