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Burnaby, BC
Canada
1294 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2012 : 3:04 PM
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You're likely also referring to the Albi Sole paper. Strict wording used there is:
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Males who typically travel with other males are at greater risk than females and males who travel in mixed gender groups at least 75% of the time.
McCammon's paper was quantifying heuristic traps by surveying incident reports, while Sole's paper was quantifying likelihood via a self-reported web survey.
I don't see a contradiction between the two papers - it just means no matter the difference between perceived risk and actual risk, if the risks are high enough they'll eventually catch up with you.
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1009 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2012 : 3:48 PM
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Certainly having your lover staring you right in the face doesn't promote increased risk tolerance. Would this be different for a single guy trying to impress an attractive pro-skier such as Elyse Saugstad, probably would have the opposite effect.
Essentially what your saying is only go with girls you have already slept with otherwise you run a higher risk of dying...hmm that may not be a bad angle
" I can take you but we have to sleep together first...my life depends on it" |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3505 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2012 : 4:06 PM
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The tone of tzoflier's posts are that beacons are not only useless, but somehow dangerous:
"while his beacon equipped partner nearly dies"
I don't understand why you're presenting the information concerning airbags as if one has to choose between using a beacon and an airbag. I advocate for the use of airbags as I have read a great deal of research that shows they are highly effective in preventing burial. But, what if you are buried, despite using an airbag, and need companion rescue? Not wearing a beacon is foolish.
Why not use all the tools available? |
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Richmond, BC
Canada
2440 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2012 : 4:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by J Mace
quote:
Certainly having your lover staring you right in the face doesn't promote increased risk tolerance. Would this be different for a single guy trying to impress an attractive pro-skier such as Elyse Saugstad, probably would have the opposite effect.
Essentially what your saying is only go with girls you have already slept with otherwise you run a higher risk of dying...hmm that may not be a bad angle
" I can take you but we have to sleep together first...my life depends on it"
LOL[shakes head][face in hands][image of train wreck]
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Vancouver
Canada
55 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2012 : 10:51 PM
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I think the idea of having a woman in the group is so she pipes up and says "she's scared" and it's more acceptable for her to say that then a bunch of cavemen doing the chest thumping.
So if she's a super duper expert and says nothing.... then yeah
If I had an airbag I would definitely be more inclined to take a big open slope vs getting caught in tree cover and having a tree shred my bag in an avy.
quote:
Originally posted by booewen
quote:
Originally posted by tzoflier
Acceptance
McCammon focused on gender acceptance; specifically, how the presence of women in a group affects the behaviour of men. He found that mixed gender groups exposed themselves to higher risk than all-male groups.
I"m pretty sure I went to a presentation by Albi Sole who stated that his research found having a girl in the group REDUCED the risk tolerance of the group. But perhaps I have remembered that completely backwards.
EDIT: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Health/20110122/men-avalanche-victims-110122/ This link indicates I might be right.
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Edited by - Grimgrak on 02/25/2012 11:41 PM |
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Kootenay Bud
2695 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 5:44 PM
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There is an increasing amount of literature on the effectiveness of airbags (http://www.virtualmountains.ca/images/stories/pdf/avalanche-rescue-systems-in-switzerland.pdf), although most of it seems to come from Europe where the nature of avalanche incidents differs from the Canadian experience, i.e. most avalanches are in open treeless terrain, where Canadian incidents frequently involve terrain traps such as trees and boulders. WorkSafe BC (http://www.virtualmountains.ca/images/stories/pdf/wsbcairbagreview.pdf) recommends airbags for avalanche workers as a means of reducing the likelihood of a full burial but, they admit that airbags may contribute to mortality if the wearer is carried further and thus encounters terrain traps, such as trees, boulders, etc.
I suspect that, in time, airbags will be standard equipment for backcountry recreationalists, but Luddites such as myself will likely resist for a long time. Partly due to philosophical reasons - not every problem can be solved by applying more technology - and partly due to the increasing weight of all the "safety" devices we are now carrying around. When I first started ski touring, no-one carried a dedicated probe, we all carried these spectacularly unreliable ski poles that were supposed to break apart and reassemble as a functional probe. Assembling them was fraught with difficulty and rarely worked even in a the comfort of ones living room, and never worked out in the field in the middle of a snow storm when panic stricken. Similarly, avalanche transceivers have progressed from difficult to use analog models that required an earplug to sophisticated digital models.
The Stevens Pass avalanche (see accident report: http://www.nwac.us/media/uploads/documents/accidents/2011_2012/Preliminary_Tunnel_Creek_Avalanche_Accident_2-29-2012.pdf) seems notable to me in that the avalanche was a soft slab - fist to four finger - on the hand hardness scale - which are typically thought of as being easier to manage and predict than hard slab avalanches, as they generally break at your feet and do not propagate far.
I had a very lax attitude to soft slabs avalanches - as all the ones I triggered were small and did not propagate far or fast - until my ski partner triggered one that was 60 cm deep and left him clinging to a tree as it roared down the slope.
I'm not sure the whole idea of having females on a trip reducing risky behaviour is dubious at best. Of the two avalanche incidents I've had where I have thought "I'm gonna die", one involved an all women party of four. Had my usual ski partner who is male been along, we would have turned back long before. |
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North Vancouver, BC
Canada
1047 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2012 : 10:13 PM
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I use an air bag and a beacon, shovel and probe for sledding, sled skiing and touring ALL the time. I would not choose to go without any of these items. However carrying all these does nothing to sway me to ski something I think might slide. I treat every slope as something that could possibly go as the truth is that any slope can go at anytime, there is no guarantee.
I think the hardest thing to instil in humans is the will or drive to turn back. If two people go to the everest or k2 and one turns back, who do we give the props to. When in reality it is harder to turn back and live than go on and die possibly, which is why so many mountaineers soon perish. It is this drive to go on that pushes us and allows amazing things to happen however it is also the thing that kills a lot of people.
I have seen a few people this season on hollyburn ski touring without any packs or safety gear and this is a sad state as like Sandy has pointed out that here most likely an avy will push you into trees and over rocks or into terrain traps. This can easily happen on Hollyburn which seems so dormant since it is on the North Shore. Mike Traslin and I skied a day last year where the whole thing sympathetically released quite big...
The important thing is to inform yourself, immerse your self in clinics and with like minded people and carry the proper gear of which you feel comfortable wearing. Air Bags do work but again like Sandy said that in violent avy through trees or rocks, there can be other things that kill you than just being buried...play hard and stay safe everyone!
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660 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 3:56 PM
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Originally posted by splitboarder
Usually the girlfriend stays home on the big days, alpine starts, steeper lines etc. Whereas mellower terrain is usually the plan when the ladies come out to play. Just my 2 cents.
And I bet the GF approves heartily of the consideration of those great guys in making her day a good one by avoiding some of that "testosteroney stuff". Well done, you soft sensitive types, well done! You were manipulated into doing what the women wanted as easily as you could have been made to beat one another with bones, have a big air contest, bring them dead animals or any other behavior the women approved of. Face, slaves is all you really are, deep down. 
Remember men can have two entirely different purposes as a group, one is the young males competing against themselves for the prize, the other is the group as a team protecting the prize.
In the former they'll happily risk death, in the latter death has been risked and the prize won, now you have to protect your winnings with your life.
We're all clear on what the prize is, right? Once the single females have been distributed by the "who can set off the biggest slide" contest, the rest of the tribe accepts the result and gets back to the real business of keeping the tribe safe. That of course is in the little monkey we all still have deep down inside, we have all this pesky civilization on top but the monkey still pulls some strings on behavior.
I bet any study breaking up the data on a "Available and Hot" vs "off-the-market" status of the female members would show up a great big change in risk-taking.
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vancouver, bc
Canada
987 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 4:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alexcanuck
quote:
Originally posted by splitboarder
Usually the girlfriend stays home on the big days, alpine starts, steeper lines etc. Whereas mellower terrain is usually the plan when the ladies come out to play. Just my 2 cents.
And I bet the GF approves heartily of the consideration of those great guys in making her day a good one by avoiding some of that "testosteroney stuff". Well done, you soft sensitive types, well done! You were manipulated into doing what the women wanted as easily as you could have been made to beat one another with bones, have a big air contest, bring them dead animals or any other behavior the women approved of. Face, slaves is all you really are, deep down.
Remember men can have two entirely different purposes as a group, one is the young males competing against themselves for the prize, the other is the group as a team protecting the prize.
In the former they'll happily risk death, in the latter death has been risked and the prize won, now you have to protect your winnings with your life.
We're all clear on what the prize is, right? Once the single females have been distributed by the "who can set off the biggest slide" contest, the rest of the tribe accepts the result and gets back to the real business of keeping the tribe safe. That of course is in the little monkey we all still have deep down inside, we have all this pesky civilization on top but the monkey still pulls some strings on behavior.
I bet any study breaking up the data on a "Available and Hot" vs "off-the-market" status of the female members would show up a great big change in risk-taking.
Slaves is all we really are deep down? Really? Come on, thats just ridiculous. The fact of the matter is I enjoy getting out on my splitboard any day, no matter what kind of mellow terrain we might be in, if conditions are crappy, so what, beats a day at the mall! Am I a slave because on easier days (maybe a Sunday after a big Saturday tour) I pick partners who will enjoy some meadow skipping, a more relaxed pace and overall just a nice day in the mountains as opposed to a pre-dawn start with tons of vertical gain trying to get to a big line? I'm not catering to anyone, but when I make a plan for a day, I consider which out of the group would make the best partners for the objective. I really enjoy spending time touring with my girlfriend, but no better then to have her out on a day where she might get in over her head.
What it is that you're talking about I haven't a clue? |
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Vancouver
Canada
55 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 11:30 AM
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Since I do hollyburn every week this really made me think. Then again I go by myself so whats the point of a beacon, probe and shovel when you dont have a group?
quote:
Originally posted by norona
I have seen a few people this season on hollyburn ski touring without any packs or safety gear and this is a sad state as like Sandy has pointed out that here most likely an avy will push you into trees and over rocks or into terrain traps. This can easily happen on Hollyburn which seems so dormant since it is on the North Shore. Mike Traslin and I skied a day last year where the whole thing sympathetically released quite big...
The important thing is to inform yourself, immerse your self in clinics and with like minded people and carry the proper gear of which you feel comfortable wearing. Air Bags do work but again like Sandy said that in violent avy through trees or rocks, there can be other things that kill you than just being buried...play hard and stay safe everyone!
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Edited by - Grimgrak on 02/28/2012 11:31 AM |
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North Vancouver, B.C.
Canada
84 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 11:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Grimgrak
Since I do hollyburn every week this really made me think. Then again I go by myself so whats the point of a beacon, probe and shovel when you dont have a group?
The Beacon you bring to help someone save YOUR life.
The Beacon, probe and shovel you bring to help you save someone else's life. |
Edited by - busguy on 02/28/2012 11:49 AM |
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Kootenay Bud
2695 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 12:15 PM
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| The shovel can be used to build yourself a make-shift snow shelter should you get caught out overnight. |
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Richmond, BC
Canada
2440 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 12:31 PM
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quote by Sandy
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not every problem can be solved by applying more technology
Excellent, that says it in a nutshell |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3505 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 1:44 PM
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| Technology can work against you. Look at snowmobiles... |
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 2:18 PM
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Originally posted by johngenx
Technology can work against you. Look at snowmobiles...
You're not saying that snowmobiles are dangerous in the mountains, are you? Or that they can even set off avalanches?
That's impossible. Snowmobilers, like quad drivers, are far too responsible to take unnecessary risks. |
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Vancouver
Canada
55 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 2:38 PM
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| I guess I just dont see the point of all that extra gear on a hiking trail. I'll have to start asking others if they bring a beacon when I see them on the trail. |
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vancouver, bc
Canada
987 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 3:59 PM
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| Well Grimgrak, I guess it depends if that hiking trail passes through any avalanche terrain or not. In the case of hollyburn most travel routes are quite safe to ascend the mountain, however depending on your aspect you can certainly ski into some very real avalanche terrain, I for one have kicked off quite a few slabs over the years in some of the steeper sections. |
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Kootenay Bud
2695 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 4:40 PM
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Originally posted by splitboarder
Whereas mellower terrain is usually the plan when the ladies come out to play. Just my 2 cents.
I'm not sure what Alexcanuck is getting at, but I can see how a bunch of "ladies", myself included, could find this paternalistic and condescending. Oh yeah, and they could kick your arse out there. |
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Avalanche Airbag saves one, three without, die
