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Missing the Rockies.
263 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 8:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dru
In addition to trying Lightnings and Denalis under the same conditions before you comment on how they work the same, you should also climb Runner and Mcguire NW Ridge in winter with simonc before you proudly proclaim they are Class 1 to 2 
Really Dru, see here:
http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24507
Sure there are a few steps of 3rd class but that's neither here nor there. ("Proudly Proclaim" WTF?)
And BTW, if someone climbed them with snowshoes on, then they're my hero, LOL. (No really.) But that isn't the point is it?
Let me guess you have conducted experiments with Lightenings and Denalis... (are you upset that someone disagreed with you?  )
Bottom line, I'd not want to climb hard class 2 or more with snow shoes on... would you? Denali's or Lightenings or the old wood ones... it probably ain't smart.
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Edited by - Mel_Lowe on 01/29/2008 9:13 PM |
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 Trail cuttin, GPS packin bushwhacker, wiki hike compilin, who is now Hope-less
2546 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 9:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Flowing-Brook
quote:
Originally posted by mazeGirl
btw: IMO, tubular frame snowshoes are not reasonable backcountry snowshoes because of their poor traction.
I'd have to agree with mazeGirl here, if you're going up or down hill tubular frame snowshoes suck! I'm hoping this discussion saves injury and $$.
Strangely, I saw MEC recommend and sell pair after pair after pair of tubular frame snowshoes to people who were likely to head up the Seymour ice rink trail immediately after 
I have a pair of Atlas snowshoes, and quickly outgrew them. At the time neither the Lightning nor Ascents were out, so it made sense. Now, not so much! I still like them for flat powder, but that doesn't apply very often around here unless I head to Falls Lake or Lightning Lake or something like that. |
Edited by - ShadowChaser on 01/29/2008 9:06 PM |
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 | Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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 Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 09:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mel_Lowe
quote:
Originally posted by Dru
In addition to trying Lightnings and Denalis under the same conditions before you comment on how they work the same, you should also climb Runner and Mcguire NW Ridge in winter with simonc before you proudly proclaim they are Class 1 to 2
Really Dru, see here:
http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24507
Sure there are a few steps of 3rd class but that's neither here nor there. ("Proudly Proclaim" WTF?)
And BTW, if someone climbed them with snowshoes on, then they're my hero, LOL. (No really.) But that isn't the point is it?
Let me guess you have conducted experiments with Lightenings and Denalis... (are you upset that someone disagreed with you? )
Bottom line, I'd not want to climb hard class 2 or more with snow shoes on... would you? Denali's or Lightenings or the old wood ones... it probably ain't smart.
So you had to use crampons going up, and rappel coming down. Do you think Simon did?
I've climbed steps of Class 4 rock and WI2 in snowshoes when I wasn't going to be able to stop and take them off or put them back on. I couldn't recommend it but sometimes you have to do this kind of thing due to circumstances.
Disagreements are one thing but opinions can be informed to different degrees. Opinions uninformed by experience aren't worth very much. For instance if one person says something is impossible without trying it and another person says they've done it, the opinion of the second person, informed by experience, is more valid. Which is kind of the case here. You are saying that Denalis or Lightnings make no difference based on having used them under different conditions at different times. I've had a party using mixed types cross a traverse and had the people wih the Lightnings sliding and falling on stuff the Denali users could get across without slipping. That's why I figure my opinion is worth more than yours here. Likewise, you say snowshoes are no good for anything difficult. I'd agree that they are not the best choice in many cases, but certainly I've used them on difficult terrain, so has simon,so have other people I know, and so I have to say they can be used for more than your casual dismissal indicates.
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Missing the Rockies.
263 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 10:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dru
quote:
Originally posted by Mel_Lowe
quote:
Originally posted by Dru
In addition to trying Lightnings and Denalis under the same conditions before you comment on how they work the same, you should also climb Runner and Mcguire NW Ridge in winter with simonc before you proudly proclaim they are Class 1 to 2
Really Dru, see here:
http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24507
Sure there are a few steps of 3rd class but that's neither here nor there. ("Proudly Proclaim" WTF?)
And BTW, if someone climbed them with snowshoes on, then they're my hero, LOL. (No really.) But that isn't the point is it?
Let me guess you have conducted experiments with Lightenings and Denalis... (are you upset that someone disagreed with you? )
Bottom line, I'd not want to climb hard class 2 or more with snow shoes on... would you? Denali's or Lightenings or the old wood ones... it probably ain't smart.
So you had to use crampons going up, and rappel coming down. Do you think Simon did?
I've climbed steps of Class 4 rock and WI2 in snowshoes when I wasn't going to be able to stop and take them off or put them back on. I couldn't recommend it but sometimes you have to do this kind of thing due to circumstances.
Disagreements are one thing but opinions can be informed to different degrees. Opinions uninformed by experience aren't worth very much. For instance if one person says something is impossible without trying it and another person says they've done it, the opinion of the second person, informed by experience, is more valid. Which is kind of the case here. You are saying that Denalis or Lightnings make no difference based on having used them under different conditions at different times. I've had a party using mixed types cross a traverse and had the people wih the Lightnings sliding and falling on stuff the Denali users could get across without slipping. That's why I figure my opinion is worth more than yours here. Likewise, you say snowshoes are no good for anything difficult. I'd agree that they are not the best choice in many cases, but certainly I've used them on difficult terrain, so has simon,so have other people I know, and so I have to say they can be used for more than your casual dismissal indicates.
How do you know what my experiences are? Firstly, you incorrectly assumed that I hadn't done the mighty [;) Runner peak in winter conditions now you assume that I have no experience, or experiences not comparable with yours, regarding the hugely important issue of Denalis versus Lightenings.
Originally your insight into the MSR issue was based on a physics hypothesis not experience. Based on that my response essentially stated that with tails off and thus greater force on the traction bars with the Denalis may make a small difference. My contention is that for situations of equal floatation I did not agree with your reasoning and moreover the use of snowshoes (any snowshoes) is not ideal for semi-technical terrain.
Now you mention a situation in which you were with some group of people that had Denalis and Lightenings and those with the Lightenings were in worse shape then the Denalis. I'll take your word at face value but you know as well as I do that there are too many variables to make that some sort of conclusive statement that the Denali's are substantively superior and then extrapolate that this is because of the traction bar placement. For example, if the experienced guy had the Denalis on without tails and the (comparative) newb had 30" Lightenings on then that may explain your findings.
And WTF is with the statement: "So you had to use crampons going up, and rappel coming down. Do you think Simon did?" Let's leave simonc out of this, I am sure that he is super competent on snowshoes, I have no doubt of this but that is NOT the point. For crying out loud simonc roped off the last step on Needle, I would have too, WTF is wrong with that? Give the "my balls are bigger than yours" sentiment a rest. When we did Runner it was late fall, snow was not deep and there as a melt freeze coating of verglas. We did NOT take the easiest route up cuz we didn't bother looking hard and let me tell you, no sane person would have climbed the steep (let alone descend it) with snow shoes on in those conditions (It probably had a few low 5th moves of mixed climbing).
To be totally frank I find some of your posts a bit presumptuous and egocentric. Dru I have no doubt that you have had more that your fair share mountain experiences but your views are not necessarily the gospel on these issues. You weighed in on this thread with a mini-treatise that contained some good info. but just because you have spoken doesn't mean that everyone else should STFU.
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Edited by - Mel_Lowe on 01/30/2008 10:43 AM |
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| Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 10:37 AM
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| We're going to have to agree to disagree, man. |
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Missing the Rockies.
263 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 10:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dru
We're going to have to agree to disagree, man.
With respect, sounds good.
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
6302 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 10:47 AM
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Ahhhh c'mon. That's the easy way out.
MelLowe 1
Dru 0
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| Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 11:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by time2clmb
Ahhhh c'mon. That's the easy way out.
MelLowe 1
Dru 0
If you want a flamewar you'll have to start your own. |
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Missing the Rockies.
263 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 11:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by time2clmb
Ahhhh c'mon. That's the easy way out.
Make luv not war. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Dru, Simon and you as well T2T. All of you dudes clearly know your stuff. Now I think I am gonna hurl |
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Peak bagging, bushwhacking, zamboni driving, snowshoeing, self portrait artist, and speed demon who loves to hang out on Mt. Seymour
4035 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 4:37 PM
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quote:
For crying out loud simonc roped off the last step on Needle
 I'm all for snowshoeing the steep stuff but I have to draw the line at snowshoeing steep rock slabs. And I had a new rope and was itching to try it out.
Re. Lightnings vs. Denalis, conditions dictate which one works better. The Denalis having a fully rigid base allows for better "kick" energy transfer to cut into a side slope. Also, they have a thin edge better suited to cutting into a hard snow (but not ice) slope.
The Lightnings, though having a more aggressive crampon system have a metal frame and a rubber (or some other soft material) decking. When kicking a step with these, energy from the kick will be absorbed by the decking resulting in less cut into a side slope. Also, the edge of the Lightnings is at least half an inch wide so cutting into hard snow slope at an angle other than straight down is not going to work well.
 
Going up in either shoes (not kicking in) is probably better with the Lightnings. Side hilling on hard snow and trying to break the surface to get a flatter foot print would be better with the Denalis. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1461 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 4:57 PM
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I agree with simonc
Mel_Lowe and Dru
Let this thread be |
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Topic |
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using snowshoes on icy or hard-pack snow slopes
