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Topic |
Coquitlam, BC
Canada
342 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2012 : 12:54 PM
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I went the route of taking a week-long alpine skills course with an ACMG-certified instructor. I went through Canada West Mountain School and I found their instruction and experience top-notch. Before I took the alpine course, I did a 2-day rock course with them to feel them out and they are pretty good all-around.
As for the club scene, if you take a course such as ACC's Basic Mountaineering course, you need to recognize that you will be learning from volunteers who have a mixed bag of experience. Some will have taken professionally-taught courses, some will be self-taught, and others will have been mentored by other "mountaineers". The biggest warning flag here is that bad habits have a tendancy to propagate - certified ACMG instructors have an extremely rigourous process to achieve their certification (I don't know if they need anything to maintain it though). With an ACMG instructor you will get the rigor and adherance to basic standards that are proven and accepted
I do find that the ACC or BCMC are great placed to meet people for hiking and scrambling - then once you get to know them you can assess their ability to take on more challenging and technical objectives. I have gone on maybe 30 ACC trips and I have come across leaders from the full spectrum from experienced, knowledgable, and to wise to anything but. You best protection in this case is self-awareness and good judgement on your part (these are things that you can cultivate over time, starting within your level of comfort and gradually pushing your boundaries).
The professional route is pricy, but the $1500 I dropped to take the Alpine Skills Week with CWMS has been one of the best investments I've made to date.
Cheers,
Corey |
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Maple Ridge, BC
Canada
344 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2012 : 1:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by caurala
I went the route of taking a week-long alpine skills course with an ACMG-certified instructor. I went through Canada West Mountain School and I found their instruction and experience top-notch. Before I took the alpine course, I did a 2-day rock course with them to feel them out and they are pretty good all-around.
As for the club scene, if you take a course such as ACC's Basic Mountaineering course, you need to recognize that you will be learning from volunteers who have a mixed bag of experience. Some will have taken professionally-taught courses, some will be self-taught, and others will have been mentored by other "mountaineers". The biggest warning flag here is that bad habits have a tendancy to propagate - certified ACMG instructors have an extremely rigourous process to achieve their certification (I don't know if they need anything to maintain it though). With an ACMG instructor you will get the rigor and adherance to basic standards that are proven and accepted
I do find that the ACC or BCMC are great placed to meet people for hiking and scrambling - then once you get to know them you can assess their ability to take on more challenging and technical objectives. I have gone on maybe 30 ACC trips and I have come across leaders from the full spectrum from experienced, knowledgable, and to wise to anything but. You best protection in this case is self-awareness and good judgement on your part (these are things that you can cultivate over time, starting within your level of comfort and gradually pushing your boundaries).
The professional route is pricy, but the $1500 I dropped to take the Alpine Skills Week with CWMS has been one of the best investments I've made to date.
Cheers,
Corey
I'm having a bit of difficulty following your point. Is the course suggested for July taught by accredited professionals? If it is, what courses are you referring to that are not? |
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Edmonton, AB
Canada
216 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2012 : 2:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
In the Rockies, both Yamnuska and the Calgary Outdoor Centre run a 3-day Snow and Ice Weekend which spends a day on snow travel, a day on ice travel, and a day ascending a beginner mountaineering peak (usually Athabasca) for $560. Granted, not cheap, but a hell of an introduction that can be worth it depending on your funding.
I'm actually going through that course (the Yamnuska one) next weekend, and I'll be sure to report back on how it went. |
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North Vancouver, BC
Canada
1602 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2012 : 2:50 PM
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Lots of options for you to think about.
Here is a specific set of ideas for getting the most bang for your buck this summer:
- Buy and read: Mountaineering - Freedom of the Hills
- Buy an ice-axe and helmet and develop your skills with that tool in safe areas. Don't practice with your ice-axe alone because it's pointy.
- Learn the basics of spring avalanche safety. It is arguably much simpler than winter avalanche safety but it's just as important.
- Tackle more challenging hikes/scrambles throughout the summer.
- Buy a short section of rope and learn all the required knots.
- Do whatever you need to do to climb on some real rock for a day or two. You don't need to buy any gear or learn how to set up anchors - just find someone who will take you out for a day if you buy them lunch and pay for gas.
Once you've done all of the above, I think you will be in a better position to decide on your next steps. |
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 | Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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 Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2012 : 3:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Steventy
Lots of options for you to think about.
Here is a specific set of ideas for getting the most bang for your buck this summer:
- Buy and read: Mountaineering - Freedom of the Hills
- Buy an ice-axe and helmet and develop your skills with that tool in safe areas. Don't practice with your ice-axe alone because it's pointy.
- Learn the basics of spring avalanche safety. It is arguably much simpler than winter avalanche safety but it's just as important.
- Tackle more challenging hikes/scrambles throughout the summer.
- Buy a short section of rope and learn all the required knots.
- Do whatever you need to do to climb on some real rock for a day or two. You don't need to buy any gear or learn how to set up anchors - just find someone who will take you out for a day if you buy them lunch and pay for gas.
Once you've done all of the above, I think you will be in a better position to decide on your next steps.
This. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1009 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2012 : 3:35 PM
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quote:
what stands between me and safely climbing larger, snowier mountains?
Big Balls, you take your cherry pirating skills and apply that to them mountains.
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Vancouver
35 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2012 : 4:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by leimrod
I want to be free soloing 5.15 above 7000m's in 5 years.
Jokes?.....
My favourite book is Craig Connally's Mountaineering Handbook: http://www.mhprofessional.com/product.php?isbn=0071430105. Wish I'd bought it first. Not perfect, duh, but proceeds from an evidenced-based perspective that is as valuable, if not more so, than any advice in any text on the subject. Also has a coherent analysis of climbing/rope system forces not found in any book I could find, save John Long's most recent (on which Connally was a collaborator/reference). |
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Kootenay Bud
2695 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2012 : 4:58 PM
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Before you go out with your buddy setting up top-ropes, read all about it yourself in one of the Mountaineers excellent series of books, Google Mountaineers books, and make sure he/she is actually doing it right.
I'm on a rock climbing road trip right now and pretty much every day we see some scary shit going down with friends teaching their friends, and the most amazing transfer of complete bullshit information between climbers. |
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Squamish, British Columbia
Canada
1005 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2012 : 7:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by patrick.yvr
quote:
Originally posted by leimrod
I want to be free soloing 5.15 above 7000m's in 5 years.
Jokes?.....
Well it's hyperbole to show that the goal is not as important as the process to achieve it.
There should be no end goal in my opinion, only the desire to be better than you were yesterday.
There's a great recent post on Will Gadds blog about making time to breath hard every day:
http://willgadd.com/category/blog/
I'm not discounting the need for courses. But, as Oscar Wilde said: "nothing that is worth knowing can be taught".
There is also a lot of grey out there in mountaineering/climbing. Whenever I read something new in MFOTH I look it up to understand why this system is used, or why this technique is standard. What I usually find is that there will be a core of people out there staunchly against it, and another set for it. Both sides will have valid reasons, you just need to make a personal decision which method you agree with.
The only rule that I think everyone actually agrees on is that you need to get to the top and back without dying or injuring yourself. |
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Maple Ridge, BC
Canada
344 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2012 : 10:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by leimrod
There should be no end goal in my opinion, only the desire to be better than you were yesterday.
I think this might not be a matter of "should" so much as what motivates a person. For you it's daily improvement, which is more in line with the temperament of athletes I think. For me it's reaching defined difficult goals and putting together the things that result in that goal. Without that one goal, I lose focus and try to do too much all at once.
quote:
But, as Oscar Wilde said: "nothing that is worth knowing can be taught".
I do love oscar wilde, but that is absolutely dependent on a person's station in life. That is to say, it's almost always crap unless you're a poet. |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2012 : 11:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by leimrod
Well it's hyperbole to show that the goal is not as important as the process to achieve it.
There should be no end goal in my opinion, only the desire to be better than you were yesterday.
no argument with the concept if it works for you, but I'd suspect you're not in much company. I think a lot of people are more motivated by specific achievements. And that doesn't mean that they set a single goal (eg. "Climb Athabasca") and then sit down on the couch once it has been completed. It means that it's something like "Climb 5.10 on sport routes by the end of summer 2012". When the goal is reached, most people set the next goal (eg. "lead 5.12 in the gym by May 2013"), and continue to progress.
I think a general goal that is unlikely to ever be achieved would be of little motivational value to most people, and setting discrete, timed, achievable goals is a lot more effective. |
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Squamish, British Columbia
Canada
1005 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2012 : 01:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cherry Pirate
That is to say, it's almost always crap unless you're a poet.
I fear you don't understand the quote, because that remark is very narrow sighted.
For example, could a course teach you why to climb mountains? Could it teach you how to feel as you reach the summit?
In your initial post you start with: "I want to climb mountains". How were you taught to want to climb mountains?
The point is that you can be taught the tools, but the experiences that will make up your life will be first hand, and it's those experiences that will ultimately be worth knowing.
quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
quote:
Originally posted by leimrod
There should be no end goal in my opinion, only the desire to be better than you were yesterday.
...setting discrete, timed, achievable goals is a lot more effective.
I've put in bold the word you seem to have overlooked in composing your reply. I agree with your points.
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1078 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2012 : 01:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cherry Pirate
quote:
Originally posted by leimrod
There should be no end goal in my opinion, only the desire to be better than you were yesterday.
I think this might not be a matter of "should" so much as what motivates a person. For you it's daily improvement, which is more in line with the temperament of athletes I think. For me it's reaching defined difficult goals and putting together the things that result in that goal. Without that one goal, I lose focus and try to do too much all at once.
I was going to mention this as well. Leimrod, you may personally feel that's the only way, and perhaps it is for you, but it isn't. There is no need to feel fear/challenged every time you go out there.
Actually, I'd argue the opposite, that the people who genuinely love the activity and/or nature itself, are the people who do it for the sake of being out there....many of them don't need competitive ambition to motivate themselves to get out there, or to improve....those things are just a byproduct.
Obviously, for you, your true motivation is simply to get "better", and there's nothing wrong with that! It need not be that way though, in fact, for athletes, that often leads to a lot of mental problems down the road.
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over the hills and far away
Canada
708 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2012 : 08:38 AM
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| I just saw bacon flying out my window.... For once I agree with DCIPHER. |
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Maple Ridge, BC
Canada
344 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2012 : 09:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by leimrod
quote:
Originally posted by Cherry Pirate
That is to say, it's almost always crap unless you're a poet.
I fear you don't understand the quote, because that remark is very narrow sighted.
For example, could a course teach you why to climb mountains? Could it teach you how to feel as you reach the summit?
In your initial post you start with: "I want to climb mountains". How were you taught to want to climb mountains?
The point is that you can be taught the tools, but the experiences that will make up your life will be first hand, and it's those experiences that will ultimately be worth knowing.
I fully understood his intention with the quote. The wording is poetic in that it uses open terms in a narrow way but does not narrow those terms with any explicit modifiers. I think you might have missed a somewhat smug subtly on my part, which is fair enough, I was being kind of an ass. This is hardly the place for me to be making multi-level philosophical jokes best punctuated by sipping expensive brandy in a self satisfied way. I'm sorry for that. |
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Squamish, British Columbia
Canada
1005 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2012 : 10:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cherry Pirate
...
Ok, well, good luck with your endeavors over the coming years. I look forward to reading the trip reports. |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3502 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2012 : 11:45 AM
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| There was a time when I wanted to tackle all those old 5.9 A2 routes pioneered by Blanchard and his peers. That ambition evaporated partially due to my lack of talent and as well by my lack of commitment. I have other things in my life that I enjoy. Today, I'm more than happy to tackle moderate peaks and spend a chunk of my winters skiing. That's not to say I'm not concerned about improving, but how I measure my progress is different now. Truthfully, it's actually more satisfying in many ways. |
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Maple Ridge, BC
Canada
344 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2012 : 12:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by leimrod
quote:
Originally posted by Cherry Pirate
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Ok, well, good luck with your endeavors over the coming years. I look forward to reading the trip reports.
The sorry was genuine, by the way.
quote:
Originally posted by J Mace
quote:
what stands between me and safely climbing larger, snowier mountains?
Big Balls, you take your cherry pirating skills and apply that to them mountains.
Hahaha, if only it were just about gall I would have done it ages ago. Good god do I hate my this name though. There was a period of 3 months in 2010 where "cherry pirate" seemed like a great idea and that happened to be when I signed up for this board. My name is Rory, should anyone have a good memory. I have not now, or ever been, a counterfeiter of cherries. |
Edited by - Cherry Pirate on 06/29/2012 12:42 PM |
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North Vancouver, BC
Canada
361 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2012 : 12:41 PM
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Thanks for starting this thread. I'm in a similar position and appreciate all the input from members.
(athough I wish we could avoid the opinionated nature of these threads, as it's annoying to have to sort through opinion to find facts). |
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Maple Ridge, BC
Canada
344 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2012 : 12:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by eco_matt
Thanks for starting this thread. I'm in a similar position and appreciate all the input from members.
(athough I wish we could avoid the opinionated nature of these threads, as it's annoying to have to sort through opinion to find facts).
I'm glad I'm not alone. Are you form the lower mainland? Maybe if I get wind of a course I'll let you know.
I will say I have asked this board for a lot of advice, and I do it because it's so opinionated. If you want straight facts, there are links and books, but what the board gives me a survey of different positions on things with less consensus and the defenses for them. A good example was my thread about kayak paddles. I read several websites but none of them really settled why you would want one type of paddle over another. It was through that thread I started to understand the subtleties of the more subjective factors at play in kayak paddles. A priceless resource for me so far, and it seems no one minds my constant questions.
quote:
Originally posted by Steventy
Lots of options for you to think about.
- Buy an ice-axe and helmet and develop your skills with that tool in safe areas. Don't practice with your ice-axe alone because it's pointy.
Do you mean find ice and climb with it or simply find a small cliff and get a feel for dry tooling? |
Edited by - Cherry Pirate on 06/29/2012 12:50 PM |
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What do I need to climb?
