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Vancouver, BC
Canada
874 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2012 : 11:44 PM
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Sadly, I would have to agree. I took St John's IFA and found it to be less than ideal. I learned (by rote) many obscure latin names for perfectly ordinary body parts. But it wasn't actually much help for wilderness emergencies. They trend to assume the ambulance is already on the way so all that is needed are bandaids and proper reporting.
The one useful thing they did teach (glancingly) was ABCD - how to keep your head when everyone else around you is losing theirs. Unfortunately they spent very little time on it.
Now, if you need to know the latin name for your left nostril ...
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Edited by - weedWhacker on 03/07/2012 11:44 PM |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3505 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 06:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by weedWhacker
I took St John's IFA and found it to be less than ideal. I learned (by rote) many obscure latin names for perfectly ordinary body parts. But it wasn't actually much help for wilderness emergencies. They trend to assume the ambulance is already on the way so all that is needed are bandaids and proper reporting.
^^^This. You're right in that it's about holding someone's hand while waiting for ALS to arrive. Wilderness specific training is much better. |
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Vancouver, British Columbia
Canada
558 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 06:38 AM
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^^^^
Ditto. If you want wilderness-specific first aid training, then there are definitely better places to go. |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 10:58 AM
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One isn't better, it's just better for a specific situation. workplace first aid makes sense when you are a designated workplace first aider, are expected to keep someone alive until an ambulance arrives, and have a determinate set of supplies.
It's just intended to teach you wilderness skills.
Taking the IFA and then being surprised that it didn't teach you WFA is like complaining that your hammer is a bad tool since it can't screw in a robertson. |
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3022 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 12:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cherry Pirate
quote:
Originally posted by cambium
St John's Industrial First Aide is a good platform to learn comprehensive skills and earn a useable career skill & looks good on resumes.
I genuinely don't want to start anything with this, but you should seriously consider avoiding st. johns. Amongst first aid attendants and paramedics, they actually have a poor reputation. They are very popular due to brand recognition, but their actual training and volunteers, who I have worked with, are surprisingly uninformed and unprepared. If you do choose to go with a non-wilderness first aid, contact me and I can recommend a respectable trainer in your area. It's pretty variable from area to area.
oh, they have gone downhill over the years? Didn't know that, my training went back many years ago when I acquired several renewals[class #C Then B then A] and the honour of having that on my resumes was very rewarding.
Times change, |
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Maple Ridge, BC
Canada
344 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 11:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by cambium
quote:
Originally posted by Cherry Pirate
quote:
Originally posted by cambium
St John's Industrial First Aide is a good platform to learn comprehensive skills and earn a useable career skill & looks good on resumes.
I genuinely don't want to start anything with this, but you should seriously consider avoiding st. johns. Amongst first aid attendants and paramedics, they actually have a poor reputation. They are very popular due to brand recognition, but their actual training and volunteers, who I have worked with, are surprisingly uninformed and unprepared. If you do choose to go with a non-wilderness first aid, contact me and I can recommend a respectable trainer in your area. It's pretty variable from area to area.
oh, they have gone downhill over the years? Didn't know that, my training went back many years ago when I acquired several renewals[class #C Then B then A] and the honour of having that on my resumes was very rewarding.
Times change,
I don't speak based on much more than hearsay and personal anecdote. But I am fairly ingratiated into the first aid community and their reputation has been harmed rather substantially by a seemingly unusually high amount of unprepared attendants they have accredited. It might just be one or two bad schools in the area I work, never know. But I'm a paid attendant who sometimes works along side their volunteer attendants and I'm a little taken aback by the things they don't seem to know (eg checking circulation after wrapping a limb etc). Know, not simply forget, but actually don't seem to know. I don't want to pretend i have some solid data about their schools though. Might just be the same bad 2 stories told several different ways. |
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Vancouver
46 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 04:19 AM
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| I did Slipstream's 80hr Wilderness First Aid course a couple years ago and it was fantastic. Michael Crawford is a really great teacher and I met a lot of neat people. Highly recommend it. They do a 40hr course as well. wildernessfirstaid.ca |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
874 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 09:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
One isn't better, it's just better for a specific situation. ...
Taking the IFA and then being surprised that it didn't teach you WFA is like complaining that your hammer is a bad tool since it can't screw in a robertson.
I beg to differ. A hammer will certainly drive in a robertson, or any other type of screw. And if it doesn't, you simply get a bigger hammer. I am not sure how that applies to the current thread though.
Like Cambium, I took IFA a long time ago before wilderness FA courses were available. Maybe IFA has improved since then.
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Langley
239 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 12:20 PM
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They seem to have improved, from how you're describing it. I've taken two courses through St Johns and the closest thing to latin you learn is distal & proximal and they don't teach a D at the end of the ABC sequence.
weedwhacker is correct that the vast majority of IFA attendants are taught that an ambulance is only a phone call away because that's the scenario they're being trained for. They work in schools, offices, warehouses etc etc.
Insofar as a level 2 IFA course will teach you CPR, airway management, upper limb splinting and immobilization, treatment of chest injuries and major bleeding it can be helpful and potentially lifesaving, but it won't teach you lower limb immobilization beyond treatment of minor sprains, you can upgrade to level 3 but in terms of financial and time committments I imagine you're better off taking a WFR or WFA course. |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3505 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 1:16 PM
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| By the time you're shelling out for good urban based first aid, you're paying the same as for WFA. Why not just do the WFA and gain the wilderness specific training too? When I did my WRF it was spilt into two 40 hour sections. WFA were with us for the first half, WFR stayed for the second half. The WFA section was excellent and more than enough to give someone solid skills for dealing with a lot of wilderness first aid emergencies. WFR expands on many things including evacuation techniques, but the plain old WFA is something I would highly recommend. |
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1058 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 2:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cherry Pirate
I don't speak based on much more than hearsay and personal anecdote. But I am fairly ingratiated into the first aid community and their reputation has been harmed rather substantially by a seemingly unusually high amount of unprepared attendants they have accredited. It might just be one or two bad schools in the area I work, never know. But I'm a paid attendant who sometimes works along side their volunteer attendants and I'm a little taken aback by the things they don't seem to know (eg checking circulation after wrapping a limb etc). Know, not simply forget, but actually don't seem to know. I don't want to pretend i have some solid data about their schools though. Might just be the same bad 2 stories told several different ways.
Personal anecdotes and hearsay, eh? Based on my own first hand experience and personal anecdotes from my co-workers, we have the same perception of OFA 3's that you have of volunteer attendants, and we take patients off of OFA 3's making $250-$300 a day. Scary stuff really. On the same note, I've seen doctors shake their heads at what I've done to a patient a few times as well. I'm not saying St.Johns doesn't suck, I did OFA 2 there once and the testing process was an utter joke, but I think it's quite common to forget what it was like to have less training/experience and look down your nose at it. |
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Maple Ridge, BC
Canada
344 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2012 : 1:21 PM
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originally posted by Kid Charlemagne
Personal anecdotes and hearsay, eh? Based on my own first hand experience and personal anecdotes from my co-workers, we have the same perception of OFA 3's that you have of volunteer attendants
Maybe so, the difference between 6 months and 2 weeks of training is substantial. But you may have missed my distinction. These are ofa 3 volunteers. That they are volunteers is not the distinction I'm higlighting. Rather, I have worked with people that were accredited by St. Johns and compared to those trained by other organizations, they were shockingly uninformed and unprepared for their task. My point is not that paid are better than volunteer. My point is that st. john's is turning out unprepared candidates at high rate with respect to other schools.
quote:
originally posted by Kid Charlemagne
I'm not saying St.Johns doesn't suck, I did OFA 2 there once and the testing process was an utter joke, but I think it's quite common to forget what it was like to have less training/experience and look down your nose at it.
This is my point, so I think we really agree. I have worked with people that trained at St. Johns and later trained at other schools and I have heard this same story repeatedly: their accreditation process is absurdly lenient. The school I went to wouldn't even let you test if the trainer didn't think you had sufficient skills. They would note your weaknesses and allow you to attend later cycle's classes for free as a way to get better. Many of the other schools follow this same policy if for no other reason but to prevent the kind of PR damage that st. john's is experiencing in the field. |
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16 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2012 : 10:44 AM
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Bumping this older thread. I'm about to sign up for a 40 or 80-hour course (haven't decided yet).
Any suggestion on whether I should choose Slipstream OR Wilderness Medical Consultants? |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2012 : 10:57 AM
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| I don't know WMC, but I've heard nothing but good things about Slipstream, particularly that they are very rigorous. |
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Kamloops, B.C.
Canada
157 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2012 : 1:23 PM
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| Either one is probably good, I have not heard any bad things about slipstream. But I can vouch for WMC's program and their instructors. You spend a lot of time outdoors using makeshift parts and being creative with on hand supplies, just like a real situation. They would be my choice. |
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Calgary, AB
52 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2012 : 2:06 PM
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I don't know anything about Slipstream, but I know both John & Shelley, who own and run Wilderness Medical Consultants.
I've done several trips with them and they are very knowledgeable about first aid/medical issues in a backcountry context. |
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Hope, B.C.
Canada
45 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2012 : 6:05 PM
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| The Hope Mountain Centre for Outdoor Learning is offering an Introduction to Wilderness First Aid and an Advanced Course in Wilderness First Aid on June 2/3 and June 9/10 in Hope. More information is available on their website http://www.hopemountain.org/programdetails.html?&programID=44 |
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1058 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2012 : 6:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by the Mountain School
The Hope Mountain Centre for Outdoor Learning is offering an Introduction to Wilderness First Aid and an Advanced Course in Wilderness First Aid on June 2/3 and June 9/10 in Hope. More information is available on their website http://www.hopemountain.org/programdetails.html?&programID=44
Your websites clearly shows affiliation with them, so you're definitely breaking zee rules by advertising for them on this forum.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerboarder
I don't know anything about Slipstream, but I know both John & Shelley, who own and run Wilderness Medical Consultants.
I've done several trips with them and they are very knowledgeable about first aid/medical issues in a backcountry context.
Same with you, if you've taken their course and recommend it, that's one thing, if you've never taken their course and are promoting it because you're friends with them, you may also be breaking zee rules.
I hate to be a wet blanket, but gear reviews and course queries shouldn't be an invitation to advertisers, they should be limited to personal opinion qualified by experience, with nothing to gain. |
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Van, BC
Canada
2789 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2012 : 7:30 PM
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I've taken a wilderness course from Wilderness Medical Consultants (Shelley), and can highly recommend it.
And no affiliations or referral fees here :p
-Ryan
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Question about First Aid courses
