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Newton, bc
Canada
282 Posts |
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 map hatin', coffee perc totin', garbage collectin', backpacking, action hero wannabe, who loves to hide out in Garibaldi park and will have his scouts sing if you keep him awake at night
2467 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2012 : 09:47 AM
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| Makes perfect sense troutbreath for Crusty to hire a Tory Chief of Staff, it's a pretty easy equation - BC Provincial Liberal = Federal Conservative. Different name, same party/philosophy |
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3022 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2012 : 09:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt
quote:
Originally posted by Hiker Boy
My biggest issue with the pipeline is that it doesn't give us long term jobs and in fact ships jobs out of our country. We should be refining more of our own oil. The gas companies always use the excuse that we don't have enough refineries every time they jack up the prices at the pump so lets get rid of that excuse and create jobs while we're at it.
Refineries are incredibly complex facilities. They have thousands of channels of control system I/O, tens of thousands of HP in rotating equipment, and thousands of tons of high temperature volatile mixtures in the process at any point in time. It takes a large number of highly skilled process operators, technicians, and engineers to operate them. An oil refinery isn't like Alcan where you have the same basic process element repeated hundreds of times and anybody that can operate one electrolytic cell in the series can operate any one of the other identical cells. In an oil refinery you have dozens of different process elements like distillation, scrubbing, reforming, catalytic cracking, compression, pressure swing absorption, coking, desulfurization, boilers, power generation, and many more I can't think of. It's not the kind of facility you could operate in Kitimat or Prince Rupert. You need a lot of skilled labour and contractors.
'Build it and they will come.'
Why not have all those high-skilled labour needs established here in BC-Peace or Alberta?
Get all our trades schools going full out again like prior to 1982, when times & jobs were still good.
Combined with troutbreathe's news-link, I am seriously worried for my children & grandchildren's future for long term stable careers are jeopardized. |
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Vancouver
1820 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2012 : 12:52 PM
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I'm not sure why someone would imply a Canadian refinery is not the way to handle the tarsands output. If the refinery was used to displace the vast amount of foreign imported oil, there would be absolutely no need to build it in Kitimat or Prince Rupert. Even if it was, the idea that skilled staff would not relocate there lacks evidence to back that up.
Wikipedia lists the following refineries already in Canada:
Newfoundland and Labrador
North Atlantic Refinery, located in Come by Chance, (North Atlantic Refining), 115,000 bbl/d (18,300 m3/d)
Nova Scotia
Imperial Oil Refinery - Dartmouth, (Imperial Oil), 89,000 bbl/d (14,100 m3/d)
New Brunswick
Saint John, (Irving Oil), 300,000 bbl/d (48,000 m3/d)
Quebec
Montreal-East, (Shell Canada), 161,000 bbl/d (25,600 m3/d). Montreal East Refinery (Shell Canada). On June 4, 2010, Shell Canada officially announced the commencement to downgrade the refinery into a terminal, following the unsuccessful attempt to find a buyer to take over the plant.[5]
Montreal, (Suncor Energy), 160,000 bbl/d (25,000 m3/d). Formerly Petro-Canada (before Aug 2009) and historically a Petrofina refinery. Montreal Refinery
Montreal, Gulf Canada Oil, 70,000 bbl/d (11,000 m3/d) Closed in 1985 and restarted in 2003. Montreal East Refinery (Gulf Oil Canada)
Lévis, (Ultramar(Valero)), 215,000 bbl/d (34,200 m3/d)
Ontario
Nanticoke Refinery, Nanticoke - (Imperial Oil), 112,000 bbl/d (17,800 m3/d)
Sarnia, (Imperial Oil), 115,000 bbl/d (18,300 m3/d)
Sarnia, (Suncor Energy), 85,000 bbl/d (13,500 m3/d)
Corunna, (Shell Canada), 72,000 bbl/d (11,400 m3/d)
Lubricant Refinery
Mississauga, (Suncor Energy), 15,600 bbl/d (2,480 m3/d) - aka Clarkson Refinery - base oil production is 13,600 bbl/d (2,160 m3/d) of API Group II capacity and 2,000 bbl/d (320 m3/d) of API Group III capacity. Formerly Petro-Canada (before Aug 2009) and historically a Gulf refinery.
Saskatchewan
CCRL Refinery Complex, Regina (Consumers' Co-operative Refineries Limited (CCRL)), 100,000 bbl/d (16,000 m3/d)
Upgraders (improve the quality of crude for sale at a higher price)
Husky Lloydminster Refinery, Lloydminster, (Husky Energy), 25,000 bbl/d (4,000 m3/d)
Husky Lloydminster Upgrader Lloydminster, (Husky Energy), 75,000 bbl/d (11,900 m3/d)
Alberta
Strathcona Refinery, Edmonton, (Imperial Oil), 187,000 bbl/d (29,700 m3/d)
Scotford Refinery, Scotford, (Shell Canada), 100,000 bbl/d (16,000 m3/d)
Edmonton, (Suncor Energy), 135,000 bbl/d (21,500 m3/d). Formerly Petro-Canada (before Aug 2009).
Bitumen Upgraders (turn bitumen into synthetic crude, which then must be further refined)
Scotford Upgrader, Scotford, (AOSP - Shell Canada 60%, Chevron Corporation 20%, Marathon Oil 20%), 250,000 bbl/d (40,000 m3/d) (located next to Shell Refinery) raw bitumen
Horizon Oil Sands, Fort McMurray, (Canadian Natural Resources Limited), 110,000 bbl/d (17,000 m3/d) raw bitumen
Long Lake[disambiguation needed ], Fort McMurray, (OPTI Canada Inc. 35% and Nexen Inc. 65%), 70,000 bbl/d (11,000 m3/d) raw bitumen
Syncrude, Fort McMurray, (Canadian Oil Sands Trust, Imperial Oil, Suncor, Nexen, Conoco Phillips, Mocal Energy and Murphy Oil), 350,000 bbl/d (56,000 m3/d) raw bitumen
Suncor, Fort McMurray, (Suncor), 350,000 bbl/d (56,000 m3/d) raw bitumen
British Columbia
Burnaby Refinery, Burnaby, (Chevron Corporation), 52,000 bbl/d (8,300 m3/d)
Prince George Refinery, Prince George, (Husky Energy), 12,000 bbl/d (1,900 m3/d)
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Langley, BC
Canada
1078 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2012 : 3:06 PM
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| You'll notice a trend of refineries near the point of end use of refined products. |
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 | Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
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Langley, BC
Canada
1078 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2012 : 9:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by cambium
quote:
Originally posted by Matt
quote:
Originally posted by Hiker Boy
My biggest issue with the pipeline is that it doesn't give us long term jobs and in fact ships jobs out of our country. We should be refining more of our own oil. The gas companies always use the excuse that we don't have enough refineries every time they jack up the prices at the pump so lets get rid of that excuse and create jobs while we're at it.
Refineries are incredibly complex facilities. They have thousands of channels of control system I/O, tens of thousands of HP in rotating equipment, and thousands of tons of high temperature volatile mixtures in the process at any point in time. It takes a large number of highly skilled process operators, technicians, and engineers to operate them. An oil refinery isn't like Alcan where you have the same basic process element repeated hundreds of times and anybody that can operate one electrolytic cell in the series can operate any one of the other identical cells. In an oil refinery you have dozens of different process elements like distillation, scrubbing, reforming, catalytic cracking, compression, pressure swing absorption, coking, desulfurization, boilers, power generation, and many more I can't think of. It's not the kind of facility you could operate in Kitimat or Prince Rupert. You need a lot of skilled labour and contractors.
'Build it and they will come.'
Why not have all those high-skilled labour needs established here in BC-Peace or Alberta?
Get all our trades schools going full out again like prior to 1982, when times & jobs were still good.
Combined with troutbreathe's news-link, I am seriously worried for my children & grandchildren's future for long term stable careers are jeopardized.
At the end of the day the Chinese just want a shaft that turns under the hood of their cars. They're going to get the turning shaft, and any consumables required to keep it turning, from the cheapest alternative. If they can buy crude from Iran and refine it into gasoline and diesel in China for less than they can buy gasoline and diesel from us, why wouldn't they?
Supplying Chinese demand would require a rather more substantial refinery than either of the two in BC.
North America already has a shortage of refining capacity. |
Edited by - Matt on 01/14/2012 10:09 PM |
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Nanaimo, BC
Canada
220 Posts |
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3022 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2012 : 9:06 PM
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Getting in bed with the Chinese government for the short term profit may well threaten our own security down the road.
If say in the future the Chinese start some messy stuff with Tiawan or alongside NK or alongside Iran or Myanmar and get the U.N. and world opinion riled up, and we threaten to stop the oil flow at our port [embargo] the Chinese may well declare that port a Nuclear Strike Target.
Think about it. War. |
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Terrace, BC
957 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2012 : 12:21 AM
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| Don't get me started....... |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
874 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2012 : 01:02 AM
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If Alberta oil became important to China'a economic security, we could expect trouble. It would be no different than the Iraq invasion or US training special attack groups during the 1974 oil turmoil.
No superpower will ever allow its self-interests to be compromised.
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Edited by - weedWhacker on 01/19/2012 01:09 AM |
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3022 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2012 : 10:33 AM
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A new not-so-new equation thrown into the formula and why us radicals feel bugged.
From CBC source Jan 26 2012
copied
Proposals to build new pipelines to carry oilsands crude to the United States, or through British Columbia for export to Asia, have sparked political battles between environmentalists and politicians on both sides of the border.
But the debates have also focused attention on how Canada uses the oil that it has.
Canada exports about two-thirds of its oil to the United States— while half of the oil used in Canada is imported from other countries.
Western Canada is self-sufficient, supplying its own oil before exporting the rest. But Eastern Canada relies on imported oil — despite the fact that some provinces are oil producers.
There are several offshore drilling operations in Newfoundland and Labrador, but none of the oil is actually used in Canada. The eastern provinces rely on an oil supply that's imported from Saudi Arabia, Africa and Venezuela.
Oil sent to U.S. for processing
Ontario's oil comes from Western Canada, but it is sent first to the United States to be refined before being delivered to the province.
Professionals in the pipeline industry point to lower costs as the reason behind this system. Though it may seem counterintuitive, some say that it is actually much cheaper to use imported oil, since it costs less than it would to move our own oil across the country.
Brenda Kenny, president of the Canadian Energy Pipelines Association, said that using imported oil eliminates certain costs.
"Far and away the factors are securities and costs," she said. "Ultimately it's the pocket books of consumers and that's a key concern for us to keep it low."
But the system has its critics, including Gordon Laxer, who is co-director of the Parkland Institute, a research organization at the University of Alberta. He is writing a book on the subject and said that the current system leaves Canadians vulnerable.
"No one is talking about supplying Canadians with their own oil," he said. "It doesn't make sense to me."
In an interview with CBC chief correspondent Peter Mansbridge last week, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said he was content to let the market decide how and where the oil flows in Canada.
"The fundamental basis of our energy policy in this country is essentially market driven," Harper said. "As a market-driven supplier, we're now the only — in the developed world and in the stable world — we're really the only supplier that is secure and is increasing its production. So I think it's served the country well."
"It's served government revenues well. It's served creation of jobs well. But it is fundamentally a market-based decision. We don't dictate pipelines go here or there," he said.
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Campbell River, B.C.
Canada
116 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2012 : 4:46 PM
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| That DICTATOR needs to be stopped. He is a P.O.S. |
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Vancouver
1820 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2012 : 6:05 PM
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| One of BC's most prominent experts on energy matters has finally stated his position on this matter. Anyone interested should read Mark Jaccard's column in today's Vancouver Sun. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
874 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2012 : 6:28 PM
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The Vancouver Sun? Does anyone still read that rediculous tabloid?
Hopefully there is version on the internet. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
74 Posts |
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Fowl photographin, animal lovin, thread trollin, dry bag humpin, canoe canoodler
Vancouver, BC
Canada
4039 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2012 : 12:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sgRant
How can all this shipping of oil all over the planet possibly be more efficient than expanding our own refineries to use our own oil? Which would have the non-trivial benefits of reducing the footprint by at least the shipping portion, securing reliability of supply, stopping helping unpleasant regimes, and vastly reducing the environmental risks.
All this, of course, sidesteps the issue of what we should be doing about climate change.
It seems modern economics have become a form of madness.
Say, has anyone else signed up for Fortis' biofuel option?
I think the answer you will find from those who study this issue (and North American energy policy more broadly) is that there is simply no profit in refining. Building new refineries, with all their regulatory requirements and transportation logistics is simply not a profitable exercise given the current costs of crude acquisition and extraction in the first place. |
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Harper thinks you're a radical
