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Missing the Rockies.
263 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2007 : 2:27 PM
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That's true it won’t always be bomb proof, but in a scramble scenario we're probably dealing more with slips that turn into tumbles, the belay will also probably be very dynamic off the body and will run a bit, all reducing acceleration and force.
However, we all know it, the leader must not fall.
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 | Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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 Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2007 : 2:42 PM
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| That's the kind of assumption that leads to two dead instead of one. If you're going to belay, you need to make it good. Slinging a loose block because "the forces probably won't be that great" is rationalization, just like "this slope won't avalanche on me 'cause it's the last run of the day". |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
6302 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2007 : 2:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mel_Lowe
That's true it won’t always be bomb proof, but in a scramble scenario we're probably dealing more with slips that turn into tumbles, the belay will also probably be very dynamic off the body and will run a bit, all reducing acceleration and force.
However, we all know it, the leader must not fall.
If the climbing is that easy then why even bother with a rope in the first place? You said the leader must not fall.....then why bother yanking 2 off if one goes? |
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Missing the Rockies.
263 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2007 : 4:13 PM
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I really get the sense that we are talking about different things here. Again, I’m not suggesting you risk your life on a 5.14 pitch just slinging a loose rock. I’m talking about a grey area, when you’re not too happy about solo but a full set up is too much. Now DON’T internalize this to yourself. I dunno what you climb at but it’s probably pretty good, just pretend you’re an average scrambler.
So bearing that in mind, let me ask you this, what would you do on terrain that was 4th class but a bit sketch, and I don’t want an answer like “I’d solo it, anything below 5.8 is just 2nd class” or some PC answer like “I’d build a SERENE anchor ensure all gear was bomber while I had my belayer ready to call 911”
Although you guys say it ain’t black and white, that ain’t what keeps coming through in your posts.
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1321 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2007 : 4:31 PM
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The thing is, if I'm not confident to solo it (ie. climb without rope) then that means I need to be able to fully trust the rope to hold me if I fall. If I'm climbing with no pro then I'm not sure a hip belay is going to cut it. Also, how am I attached to the rope? Tieing it around my waist doesn't particularly instill confidence.
Using a rope only to rappel makes slightly more sense maybe , but now we are talking about carrying a rope, harness, at least a carabiner if not a rappel device, anchor material for the top etc.
There are certainly times that I'd take all that stuff, but then it wouldn't be a scrambling trip. We shouldn't really get held up on terminology here... but is it worth it to carry a bunch of climbing gear all the time for the 1% chance that you might use it? Some people would say yes, I'd rather just bail when I get to something too hard. You can reduce the amount of stuff you carry (eg, just a short length of cord) but then you reduce the chance of it actually being useful too.
There's my opinion thrown in :) |
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Missing the Rockies.
263 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2007 : 4:58 PM
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Thanks swebster. I have a short rope, a couple light slings and a super light locker in the bottom of my pack. Very minimal weight. I am confident raping with a sling fashioned to a diaper harness using a munter hitch. Also a dulfersitz if needed on lower angle terrain. The rope is also good for bringing up a second or a security line. In some rare cases I may get a belay as leader. It would probably be a terrain belay (i.e. use a rock for friction) second ain’t going to come off with this, maybe just rope burns (contrary to what others may say a belay is better than nothing sometimes). Tying in with a three wrap bowline has been used for many years in lieu of a harness. Body belays were used very successfully for years.
I have used this gear on several occasions.
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
6302 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2007 : 5:56 PM
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Here's the problem Mel. There are alot of options and now we are getting into semantics. It's difficult to decide which option is best without actually having the terrain staring you in the face.
quote:
what would you do on terrain that was 4th class but a bit sketch, and I don’t want an answer like “I’d solo it, anything below 5.8 is just 2nd class” or some PC answer like “I’d build a SERENE anchor ensure all gear was bomber while I had my belayer ready to call 911”
It's not the answer you want to hear but, I would probably just solo it. A "bit sketch" is totally relative.
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3796 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2007 : 8:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sandy
quote:
Originally posted by time2clmb
lol....I already did this. I emailed him regarding the ice screws shortly after he put it online.
OMG  I've agreed with T2C twice in one thread
Seriously, the problem with the Rockies is you just can't find natural belays easily. If the rock is solid, it tends to be very compact and there are no horns or anything to sling. If there are things to sling, the rock is crap. I can't think (off hand) of a scramble route where there are actually solid natural protection possibilities.
Solid rock? where???
I think one thing to note regarding the Nugara website is its age. As noted, he hasn't posted a report there in ages, nor does he publicize it in any way. Many of the reports, especially those of more technical activities, come from when they first started doing any of it - making it less suprising that some technical knowledge is lacking.
Regarding the book, I think it's a big mistake to pay too much attention to what it says straight out as the grade, and not enough to the write-up. Sure, Heart Mountain is 'moderate', but it is clearly stated if you read the full thing that it is merely a hike, with one 'moderate' step. For anyone who is uncertain whether they belong on a mountain, reading the full thing, and determining whether it is a moderate hike with one 'difficult' step that is a couple metres of serious climbing or a constantly loose and exposed bare route will answer that. Anyone that can't be bothered to read a little more deserves to be turned back from something they shouldn't have been on.
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Missing the Rockies.
263 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2007 : 12:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by time2clmb
It's not the answer you want to hear but, I would probably just solo it. A "bit sketch" is totally relative.
Amen.
Enough arm chair climbing, I have to spend some time at the gym on my project, the gnarly top-roped 5.1 route I will call “a scramble…say what?” |
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Kootenay Bud
2695 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2007 : 09:19 AM
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You can continue to follow the adventures here:
http://www.freewebtown.com/anugara/log2.htm
Mel, it just doesn't seem that grey to me, if you are afraid of a fall, then you should have a solid belay - final answer. Regardless of whether it's a bit "sketch" 4th class or 5.12. A solid anchor might not mean 4 pieces of pro, but it will definitely mean considering the direction of pull if someone does fall (which might change over the arc of a fall) - especially if you are relying on a hip belay. Personally, having climbed or scrambled (whatever you want to call it), in the Rockies, Columbias and Coast Mountains, the difficulty of finding quick, solid, natural anchors in the Rockies should not be underestimated. That means, you might, in fact, have to carry a bunch of gear to get a secure anchor. |
Edited by - sandy on 11/18/2007 09:19 AM |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
6302 Posts |
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Missing the Rockies.
263 Posts |
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MORE SCRAMBLES IN THE CANADIAN ROCKIES
