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 Kootenay Bud
2695 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 1:59 PM
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So you want to climb Mt Fosthall (just 'cos it's there) either on ski or snowshoe. What route do you choose and why? Any special travel precautions?
Here's what the peak looks like taken from the east.
You are coming from the cabin:
Avalanche hazard is rated moderate by the CAA:
Travel Advisory: Cold and dry weather with very little wind has helped to further stabilize the snowpack. Good snowpack stability is allowing riders to get into steep terrain without incident, except in the Purcell Mountains near Golden and Invermere. In the Purcells riding in steep terrain could get you into trouble quickly because of an unpredictable weak layer. We emphasize that the danger in the alpine is on the serious side of Moderate meaning that the chance of triggering a slide is slim, but it you do it will be large and have serious consequences. Areas that you will most likely trigger an avalanche are in terrain steeper than about 35 degrees, near rocky areas, very steep terrain bulges, or sparse trees.
Avalanches: On new years day a skier remotely triggered a slide near the Kicking Horse Ski Area. The avalanche failed on the November rain crust which has weak layers of facets above and below it. We continue to mention this avalanche because we feel that conditions have not changed.
Snowpack: The surface snow is 10-30 cm deep and sits on a layer of buried surface hoar. This storm snow is faceting and losing cohesiveness, except in windy locations in the Purcells where thin windslabs have formed. Deeper in the snowpack, the November rain crust with a weak layer of facets is 50-100 cm deep in the Purcells. This layer remains a serious concern.”
Weather is perfectly clear, but chilly, about -15. The weather has been cold (low minus teens) for about 5 days now. You've only been in the area for one day and on that day you observed a temperature of -15 in the alpine, surface snow on north facing slopes in the alpine was facetting. Skiing north facing slopes up to 40 degrees you easily triggered a soft slab 20 to 25 cm deep on a convex roll (bed surface was a surface hoar) that ran about 8 metres to the bench below. There is evidence of other recently (same day or day before) released slabs of similar size on similar terrain. Steeper south facing slopes are sun-crusted but the crust is not uniform – it seemed to be mostly on steeper south slopes (30 to 35 degrees). Finally, there is evidence of several old small slab releases (no bigger than class 1) off the east ridge of Fosthall. |
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Herbal tea drinkin, tree huggin, view seeking, tortoise paced, ultralite wannabe
Vancouver, BC
Canada
2847 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 4:02 PM
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Ok, I'll jump in for the fun of it and to learn something from someone who's been there way more than I will ever likely be.
First, I probably wouldn't be there in the first place because there are too many avvy prone slopes all over but if I had done some shovel tests and they indicated reasonable stability, I'd feel a little safer. I don't like that the weather has stayed cold with that hoar frost layer just under the surface layer. That's not nearly warm enough or long enough for it to have consolidated hence my initial reservations. Ok, I'm a scaredy cat, I admit it 
first I've uploaded what I think the most avvy prone areas and terrain traps are by looking at the topo and the pic.
I'd especially not like to be swept off over the cliffs on the far left. I think the easiest, although not necessarily the safest or best is this one.
I'm trying to avoid my prime avvy areas and terrain traps and stay on the areas where if an avvy occured, I'm hoping it stops before it gets to me. This is for skis and snowshoes and they stay on the whole time. The reservations I have about using that ridge is that it is a very steep dropoff on the other side and since it is a southwest to northeast ridge, it is probably windloaded up there and thus may be corniced and unstable. Hard to tell from the photo. But it looks pretty ok if that's not the case and the incline is good, less than 35 degrees unless I mis-estimated the angle. I didn't get out a protractor or do the math, which I would in the field 
Last attempt is more technical and requires some gear but is probably way safer.
The reason for this route's choice is I don't think much snow will cling to the steep faces of the 2 subpeaks and so avvy danger is really minimal. You get to stay on the rocks for the traverse and if they're not covered with ice, it looks good. You do have a steep climb at the end, though and it will require ice axes and crampons.
How'd I do?? Never going out in the field with me, I'll bet   
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HikeOn,
Rich
Only 2 things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former-Einstein |
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 Moxie scambler of pinnacles, tireless leader haunting the CDN/US border climbing everything in sight
Burnaby, BC
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 4:23 PM
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Rich, kudos to you for being willing to have a seriously thought out go at this, exposing yourself to critique. Good on ya! Interesting exercise, Sandy!
I'd probably follow a similar line as you did in your first route, Rich, except that I might not go all the way up to South Caribou pass but simply traverse the slope if it isn't too steep. It doesn't look like anything more than 20 degrees going straight across to the south ridge, but it's hard to tell what's in front of those trees in the foreground. Also, I'd probably dig a pit at the base of that south ridge before heading up it. Some people might say that you should go all the way over to the left and gain that ridge there, rather than up that ramp-like feature. But realistically, I know I'd probably be skiing down that ridge near your uptrack, so I'd go up that way to check it out.
PB |
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Trail running, bike hucking, fast packing, beer drinking collector of pine cones on a day pass
AKA
Dances with Trees
Forest Gnome Cabin
Canada
13057 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 4:51 PM
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I'd be looking to roughly follow the route Rich traced in green.To me,though it looks more technical,it doesn't expose you to the worst looking snowloads.Frankly though,my qualifications are minimal,and I wouldn't trust my skills enough to evaluate the true hazards there.Nice practical exercise,Sandy.I'll be going to school on your comments |
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Port Moody, British columbia
Canada
276 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 4:55 PM
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IMHO, in the case of High Avalance risks (which it apears there is) I'd go for the Blue route. Which would seem more difficult, but safer.
Those are my two route ideas... Personaly i feel it's how you feel (safe or not safe) that really should make the call. I personaly would wait for better conditions.
Looks like a good trip one way or the other!
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--Alsid Prime.... Maximize! |
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Buntzen roving stealthy beer mule and artist, aspiring weird image findmaster who loves BC
lower mainland
Canada
1647 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 5:30 PM
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I don't have all the training, but if my life depended on me getting to the summit and time wasn't an issue, with a map I might try either of these two routes. What do you think? I tried to avoid run-out areas, stuck in the trees for most of the way, and ascended along the tops of more gentle slopes.
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Life is too short to believe I’m wasting time. |
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opinionated-stove huggin'-fleece wearin'-arse burnin' hill virgin
Here
Canada
4642 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 5:38 PM
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I like Rich's red route although I would probably have done the approach up those less steep tree'd slopes to the south rather than cutting up and across from the pass.
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"My name is Hiker Boy and I approved this message" |
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Kootenay Bud
2695 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 6:47 PM
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| Wow, you guys rock - any more comments? Any travel considerations you'd excercise? |
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 | Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 7:53 PM
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I do not like Rich's green route as it is cutting across terrain that would be very annoying to climb. Here are my two routes. Orange is ski or snowshoe right to the summit. Blue is ski to X, leave skis and then crampon up ridge.
The terrain areas I worry about are the convexities. I aim on the orange route for the nice bench traversing through the middle of the face. However, reported and observed conditions are pretty stable. Since this is an SE face I would leave the cabin abvout 4AM and plan on being on the summit before the sun was baking the SE face. If anything seemed iffy I would wait for the sun to come off those slopes before coming back onto them on descent (take extra puffy coat etc for 4 hour nap on summit). In the reported conditions, which seem quite stable, I really don't think such a precaution would be necessary though.
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opinionated-stove huggin'-fleece wearin'-arse burnin' hill virgin
Here
Canada
4642 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 8:21 PM
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Yeah, yeah...I like the orange one!
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"My name is Hiker Boy and I approved this message" |
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Outdoors addicted flyfishing, skiing, snowshoeing, hiking car crooner and resident motormouth
Da'Wack, BC
Canada
5372 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2005 : 9:39 PM
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I agree with the orange route, keeping caution while crossing gullies for the possiblity of smaller windloaded features. I think that Rich's green route is faaaar to technical and perhaps more a chance of injury from a fall mishap than avalanche. I also most likely would not attempt Dru's Blueline for lack of equipment and experience in that kind of steep winter terrain. I think depending on the wind direction during the last storm Mt Frosthall's south ridge could have experienced some loading on the eastern slopes so I would be wary of that but mostly I would expect loading on the N and NE aspects. Be keeping a wary eye for cornices on that ridgeline though - loading direction early out of the treeline might give a good indicator of what to expect further along.
I like Dru's route up through the trees and then heading west towards the south ridgeline.
Good exercise Sandy. |
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Herbal tea drinkin, tree huggin, view seeking, tortoise paced, ultralite wannabe
Vancouver, BC
Canada
2847 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2005 : 10:03 AM
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The reason I didn't go right through the trees to gain the bench quickly is I wasn't exactly sure where I was on that first starting point. It looks to me like you are actually entering a gully that you have to traverse with a lot of steep runout just south of where you enter. If I look closely, I see the trees behind the first batch in the foreground are much smaller, hence a lot further away than the picture makes it seem. Having said that, it looks like on the topo, if you stay on the 6900/7000 topo line, it's probably pretty safe and avoids some of the detour to S. Caribou Pass so if Dru was leading, maybe I'd follow him no problem. So my only question is that first part of his S-curve. Now getting up at 4AM is another matter entirely. How about 4:30  |
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| Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2005 : 10:14 AM
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I don't have an alarm clock actually so I'd probably get up at midnight assuming it was 4 AM.
I don't think the photo is taken right at the cabin? It seems to be more like somewhere near the pass itself. |
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Ladner, BC
Canada
1176 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2005 : 10:50 AM
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quote:
Any special travel precautions?
do U really have to/want to go?
got ur bumbuddies?
emergency contact has relevant info?
destination/party size/itinerary etc at cabin/vehicle/emergency contact?
PPE's checked?
Where is Fosthall? Idon'thave the maps.... but the topo thereshows osoyoos/kootenay border. the CAA adivsory speaksmuch of Purcells and Yoho area... see if there's a more localized report?
ie. I don't reallyknow where I be at. So I will put on the sunscreen, fire up the bbq and have a beer? and contemplate whether all those bumpy moguly things are built up by avalanchesor trolls in hiding
this is a very good excercise sandy, good idea.
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The tougher the climb, the better the food tastes. -Lupin- |
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Kootenay Bud
2695 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2005 : 1:34 PM
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Thanks to everyone who participated - great comments, I enjoyed them.
I should have said that Fosthall is in the Monashees which is part of the Columbia Mountains. As Lupin pointed out most of the South Columbia CAA report refers to conditions in the Purcells, which has a snowpack of probably around a settled metre less than the Columbias. So, for a number of reasons, the Columbia snowpack is generally much more stable than the Purcells. (for example, I haven't seen any facetting around the November rain crust - which is buried well over a metre now in the Columbias and nearing the limit for skier triggering anyway). But, that is the best avalanche forecast available from the CAA for this area, and, sadly, moderate is about the lowest rating we get here in winter. Some CT'ers would probably be shocked at the kind of terrain people huck themselves off here when the hazard is in the moderate range
Our areas of concern were similar to Scramblers and Dru's in that the south ridge itself is safe once you get there (you can easily hold a clinometer to the picture and see the angle is under 25 degrees), but there are a few convex rolls on the SE face that you need to negotiate to get to the south face. Initially, we thought of taking the ramp here and avoiding all steep terrain.
Of course, if you triggered a hard slab above you there is some potential that you might get swept off the cliffs - again as Scrambler pointed out. But, this seemed a long way to go around given that conditions on south facing slopes were really quite stable. Perhaps if the conditions were worse this would be the route of choice.
In the end we took this line (very close to that mentioned by others)
Tsk, tsk, we didn't dig a snowpit - but then again it didn't seem necessary as we had no other indicators of instability. However, we did cross the convexity one at a time and skied down one at a time on return.
The temperatures were cold (-15 or so) so there was no danger of wet releases on SE slopes so a 4 am start (!) was not required. Wind loading in this neck of the woods is predominantly on east slopes as the storms and prevailing wind come from the west. The south face was actually fairly stripped, but it is easy to see from the picture that the snow stripped from the south face was deposited over onto the east slopes, and had cross loaded some of the small gully features that you cross on the way to the ridge (good eye Exscape).
It's hard to see in the photo but Scramblers green line would be right difficult. There were a number of small slabs released from the tops of the those cliff bands. Definitely would be a first ascent, but would also involve travelling 5th class terrain with snow on it (plus I know from being here in summer that the rock on Fosthall makes my breakfast weetabix look solid). We skied back up to Dru's blue cross later - the ridge looked yucky to me, but I'm sure Dru would enjoy it  .
We did trigger a small soft slab the day before on a north slope that ran on a surface hoar, but my guess is that on these south slopes any surface hoar had been destroyed by the sun. Also, there was no facetting of surface layers observed on south slopes, only on north ones.
Thanks everyone. Someone else should post one.
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bandana wearin', pole huckin', view lovin', dog herdin', 4x4 navigatin', lake huntin', butt-slidin' bridge crosser, who enjoys postholing with an overnighter pack
Surrey, BC
Canada
4649 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2005 : 5:31 PM
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Wow, cool exercise! I have no idea of what most of you are talking about but hey, you gotta learn somewhere . Didn't realize it was so technical so I say we should definitely have more exercises like this.
Thanks Sandy! |
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Kootenay Bud
2695 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2005 : 7:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Spunky
I have no idea of what most of you are talking about but hey, you gotta learn somewhere .
How do you know we do? |
Edited by - sandy on 01/26/2005 7:07 PM |
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Herbal tea drinkin, tree huggin, view seeking, tortoise paced, ultralite wannabe
Vancouver, BC
Canada
2847 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 4:56 PM
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Alright!! I give myself a B+ and will try to do better next time. I thought about suggesting the one-at-a-time in places but without actually being there, I couldn't get a real feel for whether it was necessary or not. Maybe I should have studied the topo more but snow and topos often don't match up. Now that you mention it, I do notice the windloading of the east faces. I should have picked that up right away. But that's why I assumed the ridge line you took would be corniced, because of the prevailing wind coming from the west.
Great exercise, Sandy. Got any more? Anyone else? |
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Kootenay Bud
2695 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 7:06 PM
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Scrambler, you were awesome. It's hard when you aren't there yourself. You probably (OK definitely) are a lot more conservative than I am but everyone has there own tolerance limits.
The one at a time thing is so easy to do, particulary when the only really hazardous area is so short, that it's something I do pretty routinely. It all depends though, if you had a huge south facing slope to go up early on a spring day, and 10 people in your party, going one at a time might actually make the whole trip more hazardous as you would be on the slope as it got warmer, and warmer, and warmer.... |
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God fearin' music packin' animal BBQin' funny trip reportin'.... cheese lovin' MH lover who skinny dips in Ling secret lakes
Somewhere between pomp & circumstance, British Columbia
Canada
1402 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2005 : 9:25 PM
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Here's my modus operandi...
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Animals are my friends...and my friends taste good barbequed! |
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Buntzen roving stealthy beer mule and artist, aspiring weird image findmaster who loves BC
lower mainland
Canada
1647 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 6:08 PM
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Sandy was nice enough to take the time and describe by email what’s involved with the route I put down. The main concern would be the 50% or so slope near the summit on the north side that I should have clearly seen on the photo if not figured out from the contours! Not to mention the more unstable northern slopes. Lots to learn for sure. Thanks Sandy. Great exercise.
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Life is too short to believe I’m wasting time. |
Edited by - BCer on 01/28/2005 6:09 PM |
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What's your route and why?
