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Vancouver
1808 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 7:19 PM
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I thought this topic deserved its own discussion. It came up in the Diamond Head Hike 04/11/21 topic.
30 years ago, local winter mountaineeering was pretty much on skis only. As interest in winter activities has grown, more people wish to enjoy the winter without investing the time and money to be comfortable skiing in our difficult mountain terrain. Makes sense, and it's good to see people out there.
This works fine in fee areas, where the groups are separated. It's also fine for hikers and snowshoers in the backcountry, because wherever skiers go, the non-skiers can travel more easily on the ski tracks. Unfortunately this generally ruins things for the skiers. Another element was the arrival of snowboarders who mostly visit the backcountry on foot, and who also appreciate a good ski track to destroy.
There are exceptions, such as in deep snow where a preceeding showshoe trail helps with trailbreaking, or where there are enough snowshoers that they pack down a flat trail. Even then, the skis have to be steered, unlike in a ski-only trail. But people just using boots are never a benefit to the skiers. For skiers headed uphill, the postholed tracks offer unstable footing and reduced grip. For those on wax, or waxless skis, the ski won't grip when placed with the midsection over a hole. When going downhill, the wrecked trail ruins control, and can catch an edge or tip with disastrous results.
Something even more annoying is if skiers break a new trail so they don't have to use the ruined one. Invariably, people will then walk or snowshoe on the new trail. And if the skiers break yet another trail, others will walk on it too. Now, I know a fresh ski trail offers more predictable footing than a stomped one, but what are people thinking?
Of course there's no law that prohibits walking on a ski trail. There are also plenty of other legal ways we can spoil each others' enjoyment of the mountains. It's a matter of civility and respect. I'm filled with gratitude when I see snowshoers going to the trouble of breaking their own trail. I don't get that feeling for postholers because they never stay off the ski tail.
If chosen gear is incapable of covering the distance that can be done on skis, then accepting such limitations are part of what one buys into when choosing a recreation. It does not give anyone the right to spoil things for those whose gear is more suited to covering distance, or whatever.
The other irony is that following a ski trail means that hikers are spoiling the experience for exactly those who made their extended travel possible. Sort of like biting the hand that feeds one. Then there's the situation on Mt. Hollyburn....
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 opinionated-stove huggin'-fleece wearin'-arse burnin' hill virgin
Here
Canada
4641 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 7:26 PM
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Last year I ran into a situation where the skiers left absolutely no room for snowshoeing. Two set tracks were layed down on the outer edges of a road with an area for skate skiing in the center...absolutely no room was made for us snowshoers even though it was a snowpark which was supposed to allow access for everyone. In this case, I believe the skiers need to learn to share.
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"My name is Hiker Boy and I approved this message" |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
123 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2004 : 7:48 PM
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Dear Mr. Rant,
I am one of those people spoiling your fun. But it wasn't intentional, as I am not a skier and for obvious reasons wouldn't realize these facts that you have discussed. Now that I know what you mean I will be much more careful on the trails.
Just, so you know we aren't all out intentionally spoiling your fun. We all love the wilderness as much as you, I rarely see a snowshoer cackling madly behind a tree after he has stomped your trail. Then waiting in delighted excitement as the next skier does a faceplant.
Please remeber that we can only understand if you help us to understand. No need to insult.
Happy Rainbows!  
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A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
Herm Albright (1876 - 1944) |
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Vancouver
1808 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2004 : 9:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hiker Boy
Last year I ran into a situation where the skiers left absolutely no room for snowshoeing. Two set tracks were layed down on the outer edges of a road with an area for skate skiing in the center...absolutely no room was made for us snowshoers even though it was a snowpark which was supposed to allow access for everyone. In this case, I believe the skiers need to learn to share.
It would depend on the exact circumstances, but if skiers have used up all the space somewhere where snowshoers have the right to go, then it's reasonable for the snowshoers to walk on one of the ski trails. The irritation apparent in my post stems from the far more common experience that snowshoers and hikers will walk on both ski trails even if there is untracked and usable space available.
quote:
Originally posted by Raginbull
Dear Mr. Rant,
I am one of those people spoiling your fun. But it wasn't intentional, as I am not a skier and for obvious reasons wouldn't realize these facts that you have discussed. Now that I know what you mean I will be much more careful on the trails.
Just, so you know we aren't all out intentionally spoiling your fun. We all love the wilderness as much as you, I rarely see a snowshoer cackling madly behind a tree after he has stomped your trail. Then waiting in delighted excitement as the next skier does a faceplant.
Please remeber that we can only understand if you help us to understand. No need to insult.
You're right, I was overly snarky in a couple of comments. I can only say it was a result of the frequency and degree of this problem. I underestimated how many of those who walk on ski trails, like the Kiwis on Sunday, simply don't realize their impact on others. (But they did walk on the ski tracks all the way out again - even after other parties spoke to them about it.)
While I agree with you that the sort of people who love self-propelled visits to the winter backcountry would not relish spoiling things for others, there's no doubt there are some who put their own convenience too far above the enjoyment and safety of others.
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Meet you at DYE-II? |
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Manitoba's misadventurin' bushwhackin', dog sloggin', dehydratin', beer drinkin' biggie - who's eager to peak bag Mt Currie in a dress
Squamish
5037 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2004 : 10:55 PM
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| I think it's definitely worth mentioning. Thanks for the reminder. |
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ass wigglin, cheese lovin, 4x4 drivin, apostrophe hatin, hiking chick who loves camping on snow
spaceship..
Canada
7209 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2004 : 11:02 PM
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It's worth mentioning, but perhaps remember that some people just aren't aware.
Some people aren't skiiers, and never will be, but I'll bet most will understand that a posthole on a ski track can cause a significant accident, or snowshoes trampling a track is a pain in the butt.
I think it's a case of tolerance from both sides, I don't see any reason why skiiers and snowshoers can't share a trail.
As for postholing with boots tho, who'd want to?
Ignorance is bliss they say, but in some cases can be a nuisance to others. |
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Calgary, Alberta
228 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2004 : 09:09 AM
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I haven't seen much of a problem. Most folks are considerate. I both hike and ski. I always give right of way to hikers where possible just because I know that I'm less in control of my movements...of course 99% of the time they yield, out of courtesy, to the skier. If not, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it...it's their outdoors as much as mine and maybe they get tired of folks zipping by almost mowing them down. I've mowed down a few hikers myself over the years (once a group of 4 park wardens!) and it just made me more cautious.
The problem I see too often are skiers and mountain bikers in some type of 'hurry'. If there is some need to 'go fast' then please go elsewhere....stay in the city or go to a designated nordic center. Don't destroy the outdoor experience for those who are there to enjoy the outdoors. Also, slow down so you don't distub the wildlife. If skiers would slow down then a lot of issues on a trail wouldn't be issues...especially other folks, within reason, walking on the trails. One should be able to see where there might be a hole, slow down, etc. What's the rush? If the lighting is poor, then slow down even more. Common sense.
Also, I'm older than you. 30 years ago mountaineeing was NOT pretty much on skis only. That would depend a lot on the terrain, type of snow, etc. Our family and friends were skiing, snowshoeing, toboganning and just hiking for decades. There is no 'tradition of priority' that needs to be reserved for skiers. People had feet before skis.
I haven't seen much of an issue in Kananaskis country, even in the parks. The only prints in the ski lanes are usually those of deer, elk and moose. I haven't even seen an issue in most of the parks in Calgary. We ski for miles some days in the city.
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After hiking for 35 years I still haven't reached the end of the trail. |
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victoria
Canada
73 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2004 : 09:31 AM
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How come you can't just make new tracks, ahh, fresh snow. Or maybe go a little further in your etiquette, only good skiers should use ski tracks, I would hate to see poor skiers fall and ruin your line.
Path of least resistance is the essence of back country travel, good luck on your quest, and thanks for the trail
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If you get confused, listen to the music play. |
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North Vancouver, BC
Canada
433 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2004 : 6:45 PM
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oh, that reminds me...time to go snowboarding...time to plow away all of that nice fluffy snow and leave only ice behind...  j/k
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If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1116 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2004 : 7:11 PM
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Once you get away from the heavily travelled trails of seymour and Hollyburn,snowshoers on ski trails ceases to be much of a problem.I frequently ski from the parking lot of seymour to the 3rd peak and while it's a great workout,the ski down is usually pretty rough.In fact one doesn't get decent skiing until you arrive at the downhill ski area.However,after doing this,skiing on the open terrain of areas like Pemberton,or Garibaldi park is easy and fun by comparison.
The first modern snowshoes were invented by some members of the Sherpa mountaimeering club of Spokane.They were invented for the pupose of approaching climbs when terrain or skiing ability was a problem.These were called,logically enough,Sherpa shoeshoes.This was around 1980 and when the patent of the rotary claw ran out sometime in the 90's it spawned a plethora of imitations.This,combined with aggresive marketing,created a great increase in the number of snowshoers on the North Shore Mountains.What I often find strange is the number of snowshoers I see clattering along rock hard icy trails when it wold be easier just to strap the shoes on your pack and walk on the ice.Same goes for skis,as long as I'm not postholing I just strap my skis on my pack and walk.
Grouse moutain rentals rents out snowshoes no matter how hard the snow is,not wanting to miss out on making a buck even on days where snowshoes are of no use.I even heard a clerk at MEC telling a customer that" these are great snowshoes for hardpack" Why would you need shoeshoes if it's hardpack?Although I can understand the concern about snowshoers and hikers using the ski trails it's only a problem on the North Shore mountains.It's usually pretty easy to cut a skin track a few metres off the beaten path on the way up to seymour's peak.In conclusion,I think that even the small moutains around here are big enough for snowshores,skiers,et al! |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
1100 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2004 : 8:17 PM
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| Can't please all the people all the time. Everyone else has the same right to that trail as you do. Snow shoer, post holer and skiier alike. People will follow the path of least resistance. |
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Satirical photoshop junkie who frolics in the mountains of the Chilliwack River Valley
Chilliwack, BC
Canada
6895 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2004 : 9:16 PM
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I both ski and snowshoe, and I supopse that snowshoe tracks or postholes would be more annoying to the cross country track skiers than us backcountry skiers. I've both skied and snowshoed the fatdog/ cambie creek ski routes in Manning, and I try to be as respectful as possible when showshoeing on roads with established ski tracks.
I've found that my backcountry skis don't work well in those skinny tracks either, so perhaps my fatter skis could also be somewhat ruinsome to ski tracks in softer snow conditions.
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Live each day as if it was your last, and someday you'll be right.
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Vancouver
1808 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2004 : 10:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by soup
How come you can't just make new tracks, ahh, fresh snow. Or maybe go a little further in your etiquette, only good skiers should use ski tracks, I would hate to see poor skiers fall and ruin your line.
Path of least resistance is the essence of back country travel, good luck on your quest, and thanks for the trail
Frankly, your unhelpful post undermines those who said no backcountry self-propelled winter recreationists would choose to knowingly spoil things for others. How come YOU can't just make new tracks, ahh, fresh snow.
"Path of least resistance" is to stay home. Self-propelled travel always entails "extra" work, which for most is more a reason for being out there than going out looking to create conflict. Hey, you should try walking on snowmobile tracks. You'll like it. 'WAY nicer than ski tracks.
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Meet you at DYE-II? |
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Vancouver
1808 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2004 : 10:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Grizzled
I haven't seen much of a problem. Most folks are considerate. I both hike and ski. I always give right of way to hikers where possible just because I know that I'm less in control of my movements...of course 99% of the time they yield, out of courtesy, to the skier. If not, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it...it's their outdoors as much as mine and maybe they get tired of folks zipping by almost mowing them down. I've mowed down a few hikers myself over the years (once a group of 4 park wardens!) and it just made me more cautious.
I have to wonder if you've skied much at Singing Pass or Diamond Head or Hollyburn Peak.
I have not collided with any hikers, even the many who walk abreast down the Diamond Head road, blocking skiers descending in single file. It is indeed as much the hikers' wilderness as the skiers'. If you are implying I said otherwise, you are putting words in my mouth. Yielding is also a different subject from the subject of ruining ski tracks. If you are knocking people down as much as you say, then I respectfully suggest you either need to follow your own advice, or perhaps not offer it.
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The problem I see too often are skiers and mountain bikers in some type of 'hurry'. If there is some need to 'go fast' then please go elsewhere....stay in the city or go to a designated nordic center. Don't destroy the outdoor experience for those who are there to enjoy the outdoors. Also, slow down so you don't distub the wildlife. If skiers would slow down then a lot of issues on a trail wouldn't be issues...especially other folks, within reason, walking on the trails. One should be able to see where there might be a hole, slow down, etc. What's the rush? If the lighting is poor, then slow down even more. Common sense.
It's true that those out there purely for macho heroics, such as some mountain bikers, can be very annoying. I imagine caterpillars also accuse butterflies of frivolous antics. The suggestion that backcountry skiers should plod like hikers, or stay in the city, or go to nordic centers, doesn't "resonate" with me, I have to say.
I'm having trouble thinking of more than one instance where I've seen skiers disturbing wildlife that people on foot or snowshoes would not have affected. And if the entire ski track is comprised of footholes, how slow do you suggest skiers go?
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Also, I'm older than you. 30 years ago mountaineeing was NOT pretty much on skis only. That would depend a lot on the terrain, type of snow, etc.
If you are older, I doubt it's by much, and "rank" is irrelevant to the question. I refered to "local winter mountaineering" meaning the Vancouver area, and skiing certainly was predominant at places like Garibaldi Lake, Diamond Head, and Hollyburn. I saw this with my own eyes in real time. There were virtually no people on foot or snowshoes in the winter. I can't recall seeing anyone out in the winter in the Rockies at that time who weren't on skis.
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Our family and friends were skiing, snowshoeing, toboganning and just hiking for decades. There is no 'tradition of priority' that needs to be reserved for skiers. People had feet before skis.
Though I think it's a yet another red herring, so have my family for generations. I recall playing with my grandfather's home made skis. Nowhere did I suggest backcountry areas should be reserved for skiers. I remind you that my point was that where skiers have broken a trail, and there is room elsewhere, people on foot and snowshoes should try to stay off the ski trail.
Which activity came first is also irrelevant, and the point invites conflict. Our greater problems are the motorized backcountry recreationists, not each other among the self-propelled users. So let's resolve our issues in a manner that reduces, not fosters trouble between the self-propelled users.
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I haven't seen much of an issue in Kananaskis country, even in the parks. The only prints in the ski lanes are usually those of deer, elk and moose. I haven't even seen an issue in most of the parks in Calgary. We ski for miles some days in the city.
Are you based in Calgary? Surely this would have a bearing on what was obviously a post about situations near Vancouver. Corresponding with what you say, I've never run into this problem in the Rockies.
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Meet you at DYE-II? |
Edited by - sgRant on 11/25/2004 10:56 PM |
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Road raging trail blazer
Surrey, B.C.
Canada
1719 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2004 : 11:11 PM
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Up on Hollyburn there is plenty of room so that skiers and snowshoers potentially never have to meet.
I found there to be a big problem with the skate ski crowd. I took up skate skiing and as a beginner am somewhat slower. The extremely fit, experienced skate skiers behave as if they own the mountain. 
As a beginner, you fall once in a while also. If you don't get the heck out of the way in a big hurry, those experienced skiers just about ski right over you. I try to stay off the trails, but, you sometimes can't help where you fall.
The ski patrollers aren't much better.
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Don't Walk on Ski Trails
