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Prince Rupert, British Columbia
Canada
115 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2012 : 09:30 AM
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Good morning ladies and gentlemen, flaggers and unflaggers.
With all the hiking I planned on doing this summer and all I've done recently and in the past, I had a great idea for another war, I mean debate, that we could all have here on CT. Flagging... Is it pollution, is there too many flags some places, not enough in others?
In my past few (bigger) trips, I noticed that the flagging is not being kept on certain trails and it makes it difficult for an "easy" trip up a mountain and resulted quite a few times in a missed opportunity to make it to the top of the mountain because the trails were overgrown.... I am still discovering a lot of new places and don't plan on doing hikes twice... So I'm not necessarily familiar with the trails and most trail reports and books are outdated, inaccurate.
In a few occasions, the flagging was deliberately removed or worst, moved out of trail to (I assume) create confusion. Don't get me wrong, I would kick your ass if you threw your water bottle down in the woods, and make you eat your granola bar wrapper if you tossed it on the trail, but flagging?
In my opinion, flagging is quite important (to me) for a few reasons like easier access to the peak (or whatever destination), reduce wasting of daytime searching for trail-head, minimize the risk of getting lost, reduce the amount of bushwhacking done and by consequence nature destruction.... etc
I talked to a few people and they had the same experiences... Bushwhacked, walked in circles, wasted a great day....
But at the same time I get the other point of view of some other extreme outdoors people that could be very annoyed by flashing colors hanging from trees... Is it possible that some people might think flagging could make it too easy for tourists and jerks to start desecrating our precious nature in masses? That you should have that great talent of knowing exactly where you're going and knowledge of those trails because you're always out there hiking, or you don't deserve to be out there?
So let's do this and hope that we get something out of this subject before the thread goes to personal attacks on each other :) |
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over the hills and far away
Canada
708 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2012 : 10:00 AM
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| If you already understand both sides of the debate, why you looking for war? |
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50 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2012 : 10:10 AM
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| If there is no well defined trail, and you NEED the flagging to make it there or come back then you are over your head. Learn how to navigate on your own and come back, or stick to well defined trails until you get comfortable with your skills. Every one wants to go but no one wants to develop the skills beyond following groomed paths...as that would require effort and time. |
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Prince Rupert, British Columbia
Canada
115 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2012 : 10:44 AM
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I'm not looking for war, but every subject tend to turn into one usually :)
I'm just looking for opinions. Thanks for sharing yours.
quote:
Originally posted by Candy Sack
If you already understand both sides of the debate, why you looking for war?
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Prince Rupert, British Columbia
Canada
115 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2012 : 10:47 AM
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I can still go don't get me wrong. I make it back and forth but it's just that sometimes it would be much easier to have a little help like flagging when you're not use to a certain trail and the option of bushwhacking is hard.
quote:
Originally posted by mntntime
If there is no well defined trail, and you NEED the flagging to make it there or come back then you are over your head. Learn how to navigate on your own and come back, or stick to well defined trails until you get comfortable with your skills. Every one wants to go but no one wants to develop the skills beyond following groomed paths...as that would require effort and time.
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Chilliwack, B.C.
Canada
354 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2012 : 2:51 PM
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When I go exploring in new off trail terrain, I will often flag on the way up to help me come back (not real big on the gps, though though playing with it from time to time, trying to get into it) and remove the flags on the way down unless I found a cool place worth a revisit and possible trail building. I'm picky about my places though, must be a real good lookout or amazing waterfall, etc.!
So I don't mind flagging if they lead somewhere. If you want to get into flagging pollution, logging slashes are the worst!  |
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Prince Rupert, British Columbia
Canada
115 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2012 : 8:09 PM
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Pretty good point. My last two hikes sucked a bit because nobody was on the trails for quite a long time and the trails were overgrown and the fog didn't help whatsoever. Thing is, my buddy planned long hikes and messing around with time is not an option. I would flag if I knew what the stance is in the hiking community but opinions seems to vary quite a bit. I fixed some flagging that was moved around but I also saw quite a few logging slashes in the Chilliwack area this summer, but there's no way to fix that...
quote:
Originally posted by giverhard
When I go exploring in new off trail terrain, I will often flag on the way up to help me come back (not real big on the gps, though though playing with it from time to time, trying to get into it) and remove the flags on the way down unless I found a cool place worth a revisit and possible trail building. I'm picky about my places though, must be a real good lookout or amazing waterfall, etc.!
So I don't mind flagging if they lead somewhere. If you want to get into flagging pollution, logging slashes are the worst!
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Qualicum Beach, BC
Canada
1301 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2012 : 9:28 PM
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Flagging is much the same as rock cairns. They mark a route. If I'm on a popular route that is marked with flagging or cairns, I will replace or repair as I go. Popular routes are much used by beginners and while it's fine for some "experts" to comment about not having marked routes, because they don't need them, we need to look at the bigger picture. Beginners will go on these routes and if they get lost, it takes time & resources to track them down. By marking popular routes, we do a twofold purpose... We mark the route for the beginner hikers and we mark the route for the SAR people to follow quickly on a rescue.
On backcountry routes, I generally leave someone else's flagging in place, because I don't really know why it's there. Could be there's someone ahead of me, depending on that flagging to make their way out. I think it's irresponsible to assume I have the right to rip out flagging that was placed by someone that I don't know or have any understanding of their motives.
On bushwhack routes, I might put in flagging on my way in, if I'm pretty sure I'll be going out the same way, and then I'll remove my flagging on my way out.
There's no absolute when it comes to marking trails and each route has it's own standard. |
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chilliwack, bc
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2012 : 9:47 PM
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Flagging eventually breaks down so I don't consider it pollution.
There are many trails that I have been on that seem to disappear in a few steps so sometimes more is needed. On others it can be excessive and sometimes misleading.
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 Utah's canyon trekking,deck chair packing desert explorer who dreams of visiting Canada someday
3988 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2012 : 9:22 PM
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Ya know, Gabby? Flagging is what we need....
Flaggin' ??? Take a look at that desert Roy...Do you see one single dad burned "TREE" to
hang it on? Why we had to ride thirty miles before we found a tree to hang ol Bart last year. Flaggin..........that's city folk talk..... |
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vancouver, bc
Canada
987 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2012 : 10:36 PM
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I have more issue with Epp memorial plaques.
Flagging is what it is, sometimes its overkill, and that can be annoying. Other times its too sparse and yes it slows you down if the trail disappears, especially with coastal bushwacking. Lets face it, there are places we can get to in a day that at one time were expeditions. Flagged trails, hiking paths, marked roads, they all serve to speed up access to many great areas, and I'm all for it. At the same time, we should try to keep our wilderness intact, keep with a leave no trace policy when off popular trails, I wouldn't encourage trail building and flagging, but I would likely not remove it either.
So I guess it really depends on where; case by case basis. Please don't flag the crap out of the Stein, but don't mess with trails on the North Shore. There will hopefully always be certain routes/traverses where bushwacking becomes unavoidable, and thats great too, but those are typically bigger trips, require more ambition, and are simply not preferred by the typical day hiker. But there has to be a balance, if all of our wilderness areas had flagged worn trails, it would be a shame. |
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Kamloops, B.C.
Canada
157 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2012 : 12:39 AM
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| Some people consider flagging a personal choice. Others will tell you your born a flagger. I don't claim to know, but coloured ribbons are for little girls. At least where I come from. |
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1078 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2012 : 12:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mntntime
If there is no well defined trail, and you NEED the flagging to make it there or come back then you are over your head. Learn how to navigate on your own and come back, or stick to well defined trails until you get comfortable with your skills. Every one wants to go but no one wants to develop the skills beyond following groomed paths...as that would require effort and time.
+1
If the masses have decided they wish flagging on a popular, heavily used route, so be it. (though you really shouldn't need it if it's that popular)....in any case, might as well just put up signs thens....more permanent, no confusion, much less likely to be used.
If though, you really NEED the signs/flagging, and if you end up walking "in circles" all afternoon, etc. then I'd be really worried....this is no good...if it's an area that can't be navigated by visual, then get a map and be able to use it! Don't rely on them....for your own good! As the OP mentioned they could have been moved, fallen off, or have been wrong in the first place! |
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45 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2012 : 10:19 AM
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I think there is a need for flagging, a few weeks ago we set off to hit Lizzie Lake, there are some directions posted here and in 103 hikes to find our way around the bypass but we could not find any flagging what so ever. We were walking along a steep hill which seemed to be a trail and then it dissapeared altogether....there were no markings at what was thought to be the beginning of the trail so who knows if we were in the right place to begin with.
We ended up turing around and camping the night at Lilloet Lake, but we never did find the trail.
If people are going to hike it helps to have some markings along the way. I'm sure people will often head down what they think is a trail and then end up getting lost.
After our experience in not finding Lizzie i said to myself next time we head out on a trail less travelled i am going to bring some tap and flag away. |
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50 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2012 : 10:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by 604dave
I think there is a need for flagging, a few weeks ago we set off to hit Lizzie Lake, there are some directions posted here and in 103 hikes to find our way around the bypass but we could not find any flagging what so ever. We were walking along a steep hill which seemed to be a trail and then it dissapeared altogether....there were no markings at what was thought to be the beginning of the trail so who knows if we were in the right place to begin with.
We ended up turing around and camping the night at Lilloet Lake, but we never did find the trail.
If people are going to hike it helps to have some markings along the way. I'm sure people will often head down what they think is a trail and then end up getting lost.
After our experience in not finding Lizzie i said to myself next time we head out on a trail less travelled i am going to bring some tap and flag away.
Sounds like you need to develop navigational ability...a great example of what I was talking about in my post. You NEED to use flagging next time as a crutch, rather than strengthening your weakness you are going for a bandaid approach.
Now you will combine your weakness with flagging everywhere which in turn is going to end up as a poorly routed flagged "route". |
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Calgary, Alberta
Canada
1186 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2012 : 12:03 PM
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| I think flagging with become obsolete as handheld GPS units become more common, so I don't think it's really something to worry about. |
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45 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2012 : 12:07 PM
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Whatever, i have been hiking about 4 or 5 years now, my pals and I are quite busy but we are generally able to get out for 1 weekend trip per year. We like to go to different places, some less travelled. If flagging will help me then great, moving forward I will flag the "route" so other people who are only able to get out once or twice per year can find their way as well.
Flagging routes has been around for a long long time best to get used to it cause it's not going anywhere.
we carry a compass and map of the area, but if the established route is way overgrown and not very established anymore are you saying it is better to create a new route so over time you have all these differnt groups navigating their own way trampling the ground |
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Calgary, Alberta
Canada
1186 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2012 : 12:13 PM
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| Wouldn't worry about what Kevin (mntntime) says. I doubt he's had experience bushwhacking where flagging really helps. His only purpose on this forum seems to be to try and get into arguments so he can make himself feel so much more experienced. :) |
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50 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2012 : 12:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Marko
Wouldn't worry about what Kevin (mntntime) says. I doubt he's had experience bushwhacking where flagging really helps. His only purpose on this forum seems to be to try and get into arguments so he can make himself feel so much more experienced. :)
Whatever jong, Calgary boy has no clue what real bushwacking is. Yes, I have spent plenty of time bushwacking in coastal crap. And FYI, I have never claimed to be anything. |
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 | Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2012 : 1:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Marko
I think flagging with become obsolete as handheld GPS units become more common, so I don't think it's really something to worry about.
Using GPS instead of spatial navigation strategies has been shown to make your brain shrink and reduce your memory
http://www.dailytech.com/Study+GPS+Units+Cause+Memory+and+Spatial+Problems+/article20169.htm
It may well be that hanging a load of coloured ribbons from trees does the same thing. |
Edited by - Dru on 08/17/2012 1:38 PM |
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Burnaby, BC
Canada
1293 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2012 : 3:04 PM
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I like to unspool a golden thread behind me whenever I step out the front door.
That after the unfortunate incident when I used just bread crumbs. |
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Flagging... Pollution?
