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North Vancouver, BC
Canada
264 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 10:42 PM
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| Your loss :) |
Edited by - ubishops on 07/17/2012 09:44 AM
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 | LeeL
Advanced Member
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 Extreme ski tourin, mountain bikin addict who hikes at least once a year
2507 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 11:40 PM
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wow - you look way more comfortable standing below apartment block size seracs than I ever could I'll say that much.
http://www.clubtread.com/forumPix/364000/t364545.jpg
This in particular makes my balls shrivel. Good luck to you sir! |
Edited by - LeeL on 07/14/2012 11:43 PM |
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North Vancouver
Canada
745 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 9:08 PM
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| It's one thing to expose yourself to these risks, but next time why not leave the poor girl at the lake? |
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61 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 10:11 PM
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| That's crazy. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1114 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 06:59 AM
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| You know this it seems...but is Seonah fully informed? |
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| LeeL
Advanced Member
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Extreme ski tourin, mountain bikin addict who hikes at least once a year
2507 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 09:06 AM
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Do whatever you want to do. Knock yourself out - its your own choice. You're wilfully ignorant and don't listen. I get that. I really do. Nothing anyone says will convince you otherwise so speaking for myself my comments aren't at you.
Stick up pictures of yourself under seracs where I've seen blue ice all over the place at all times of the year. You must admit its interesting seeing such incredible dispassionate disregard for objective hazards or even the most basic risk-avoidance mechanisms. Before the internet, you'd probably be a contributor to VOC Journals in the hardman category with wide-eyed coeds following.
This comment is so funny and reveals a lot about your thinking that you'd attribute observations to jealousy. Someone else can take it on if you want.
"I'm so tired of the few people on this forum that are paranoid beyond belief, who are brainwashed with fear. You're the one who's missing out so stop trying to rain on everyone's parade. There's always a small risk with going a little further than the thousands of tourists that just stop at the lake, but it's so small given what I've already mentioned and beyond that we accept the risk, the fact that we might die from a large piece of ice falling and crushing us"
As a teaching moment for passive onlookers. Glaciers are moving rivers of ice and seracs are the pieces of ice at the end of the glacier. Given that they can fall at any time prudent travellers given them a wide berth. |
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| LeeL
Advanced Member
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Extreme ski tourin, mountain bikin addict who hikes at least once a year
2507 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 09:52 AM
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| You're batshit crazy but you get out and I can respect that. |
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| Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 11:50 AM
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A person who won't admit they made a mistake is unable to learn from their mistake because they are too busy defending it as admirable judgement.
The fact remains, every time you stand under overhanging ice you are rolling the dice on your survival. The chance of anything occuring is relatively low but the consequences are high: specifically, fatal. Pretending otherwise does not change this.
Making the decision for yourself is one thing. When you lead someone else into a dangerous area, particularly when you downplay the risks and tell them it is safe, it is something else again. At the very least you set yourself up for a wrongful death civil suit from a survivor's family members.
Of course, posts on a bulletin board in which one publically downplays the risks multiple times despite testimony to the contrary make great evidence in court.
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| Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 12:19 PM
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| I've only been to the lakes area of Joffre twice and on one of those two trips I saw ice fall from the serac with blocks coming almost all the way to the lake. That's a lot more than 1 in a million chance. |
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Happy go lucky, plaid wearin, postholin, safeway gaitor sportin, old-school film shootin, giver of many regards
Abbotsford, B.C.
Canada
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 12:43 PM
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Ubishops..
Great shots as always; really like all that artistic looking ice work.
Play a little safer and be sure you around to put up your reports; great conditions update.
K |
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North Vancouver, BC
Canada
1609 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 1:12 PM
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It's nice to see that people care enough about a stranger to post their concerns. It's also nice that you keep contributing to this community, despite some of the criticisms.
The next time you head up to Joffre Lakes in the summer season, you may want to explore the route to Mount Taylor as a way to extend your trip. It still has hazards but they are probably more manageable and less chance-based and it will allow you go higher and farther than the standard trail. It's high on my to-do list.
I've been open about the fact that I appreciate your trip reports but that some of them make me cringe. You take a very different approach from me in three main areas and I'd like to understand it more:
1) Evaluation of risk/reward
2) Adherence to commonly accepted best practices
3) Taking on responsibility for reducing risk for group members or educating group members of risk when leading less experienced people into the backcountry. |
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| LeeL
Advanced Member
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Extreme ski tourin, mountain bikin addict who hikes at least once a year
2507 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 2:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ubishops
quote:
Originally posted by Dru
I've only been to the lakes area of Joffre twice and on one of those two trips I saw ice fall from the serac with blocks coming almost all the way to the lake. That's a lot more than 1 in a million chance.
The kind of risks you talk about can't be altered by any knowledge, course, or fancy gear you might have, other than just not going.
Actually you can mitigate your risk by not preening like a peacock at the bottom of seracs but come, lets not distract from a fascinating discussion with the odd random bouts of logic. |
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| Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 2:20 PM
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Risk is mathematically defined as the product of hazard and consequence. The hazard is the probability of an event happening. The consequence is what will happen if it does.
In this case, getting hit by an ice block, we are talking consequences of serious injury and/or death, so risk is basically equal to hazard since we set consequence equal to 1.0.
So let's look at the hazard. The probability of getting hit by an ice block is equal to the chance of ice falling and the probability of you being there to get hit.
You can't change the chance of ice falling, so the best way to manage risk, and reduce the overall hazard to yourself, is therefore to minimize the time you spend standing in the deposition zone.
But I like Lee's "preening like a peacock" description better.
It's really pretty Darwinian. |
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203 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 2:23 PM
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| Just ignore each other....sheesh. |
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| LeeL
Advanced Member
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Extreme ski tourin, mountain bikin addict who hikes at least once a year
2507 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 2:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by cutthroat22
Just ignore each other....sheesh.
No way. This is Monty Python-esque. Awesome case study for SAR |
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North Vancouver, BC
Canada
264 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 3:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by LeeL
quote:
Originally posted by cutthroat22
Just ignore each other....sheesh.
No way. This is Monty Python-esque. Awesome case study for SAR
Has SAR ever rescued anyone of the thousands of people that have walked the beaten path up to the glacier - or I mean recovered a crushed body since the park officially opened in 1988? Anyway, not to worry another few decades there won't be any glacier up there due to global warming... |
Edited by - ubishops on 07/16/2012 3:46 PM |
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| LeeL
Advanced Member
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Extreme ski tourin, mountain bikin addict who hikes at least once a year
2507 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 3:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ubishops
quote:
Originally posted by LeeL
quote:
Originally posted by cutthroat22
Just ignore each other....sheesh.
No way. This is Monty Python-esque. Awesome case study for SAR
Has SAR ever rescued anyone of the thousands of people that have walked the beaten path up to the glacier - or I mean recovered a crushed body since the park officially opened in 1988? Anyway, not to worry another few decades there won't be any glacier up there due to global warming...
I don't know the stats offhand but don't let that stop you from being the first one! |
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| Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 4:04 PM
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"Hey I've never heard of anyone dying there since I didn't do any research, so it must be safe?"
How many people had been killed by landslides at Johnson's Crossing before last week?
In fact, there have been at least two fatalities at the Joffre seracs over the years. |
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Manitoba's misadventurin' bushwhackin', dog sloggin', dehydratin', beer drinkin' biggie - who's eager to peak bag Mt Currie in a dress
Squamish
5048 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 4:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ubishops
quote:
Originally posted by LeeL
I don't know the stats offhand but don't let that stop you from being the first one!
Hmm... well since I'm an organ donor maybe the ice will preserve at least some of my organs, well at least the ones that aren't crushed. Well, not all goes to waste - there's still a life insurance policy worth $200,000 for World Wildlife Fund so at least some good comes out of it. Was thinking of maybe dividing that up so $100,000 goes to BC Provincial Parks (much needed) :) Hopefully one life saved - not a bad return for an epic day in the Alpine ;)
And there's also the additional reward of putting others lives in danger who come to clean up the mess or haul your sorry injured ass outta there. Good times! I'm also sure your mother would love to see what you are doing, maybe you and her can go and pick out the coffin you like best, you know, so that you're prepared? What a great way to bond! 
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Manitoba's misadventurin' bushwhackin', dog sloggin', dehydratin', beer drinkin' biggie - who's eager to peak bag Mt Currie in a dress
Squamish
5048 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 4:23 PM
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Maybe Steventy can draw up a risk profile of the OP's activities 
Or one about how fast seracs fall? |
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vancouver, bc
Canada
987 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 4:24 PM
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I've chimed in before, mainly because I don't agree with Robert (ubishops) and his propensity for risk (willfully ignoring universal avalanche and glacier protocol safety protocol), with respect to him leading Wanderrung and other groups.
You are right to say that Serac falls, by definition, are objective hazards, meaning out of your control. Which means the only way to mitigate their risk is to indentify them and avoid them. In other words, what you have gotten away with to date is merely luck, and not encouragement that what you are doing is safe and others should do the same, your luck may eventually run out. And the more time you spend under these objective dangers the sooner that will happen.
Are you honestly saying that Seracs pose little risk to you because you can just move out of the way? Do you expect to skip out of the path of house sized blocks of ice breaking up and bouncing in every direction at speed?
And honestly, I wouldn't even care if you pulled these stunts as a necessary part of a route (though I still wouldn't consider it self-preserving behaviour), but its your ludicrous defense that boils my blood, you're really plan to be an "old and bold" kinda mountaineer? Good luck with that. |
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Joffre Glacier - July 14