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 opinionated-stove huggin'-fleece wearin'-arse burnin' hill virgin
Here
Canada
4642 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 08:39 AM
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| Don't stress too much, we have all had bad fire days. I have had sore wrists from trying to fan some flame into some fires. |
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681 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 09:11 AM
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| cotton balls soaked in kerosene and vasoline mix |
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Manitoba's misadventurin' bushwhackin', dog sloggin', dehydratin', beer drinkin' biggie - who's eager to peak bag Mt Currie in a dress
Squamish
5048 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 6:52 PM
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There's much more to building a decent fire than kindling and what you burn. I would say a large percentage of failed fires are due to what I've mentioned below.
Does the fire have proper airflow? It needs a surprisingly large amount of fresh air to keep a fire going nice and hot. Not wind - just good ventilation.
What surface is the fire built on? If the ground is really wet or damp that will have a detrimental effect as well - it will seem that the fire will just get going nicely when it turns into a smoldering mess for seemingly no good reason. What's happened is the moisture is drawn up into your fire and puts it out. When the ground is wet I'll make sure that I can build a fire on something dry that will burn for at least an hour before it burns through - this gives the ground time to warm up and for the moisture in it to evacuate :)
In addition to the tips about fire starters (my personal fav is dryer lint and petroleum jelly), my ace-in-the-hole is a piece of 1/4 inch plastic tubing, about 2' long. Once you get a small ember going with a bunch of stuff on top of it, use the tubing to blow a concentrated stream of air straight into the heart of the ember. This will really heat it up and make a flame large enough and last long enough to ignite the rest of the fuel. Repeat until warm and dry!
Hope this helps.
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Maple Ridge, BC
Canada
344 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 08:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by blackfly
What surface is the fire built on? If the ground is really wet or damp that will have a detrimental effect as well - it will seem that the fire will just get going nicely when it turns into a smoldering mess for seemingly no good reason. What's happened is the moisture is drawn up into your fire and puts it out. When the ground is wet I'll make sure that I can build a fire on something dry that will burn for at least an hour before it burns through - this gives the ground time to warm up and for the moisture in it to evacuate :)
I hadn't heard about the drawing moisture up thing. Your description is pretty close to my experience and it most likely was damp ground. I think this could be my problem. The airflow wasn't ideal, but I had tried to compensate for it. |
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Kamloops, B.C.
Canada
157 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 10:26 AM
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| 99% alcohol hand sanitizer.... its small and will burn a long time. also great for first aid and clean ups. That and a knife. Equal parts gasoline and vasoline sticks to anything and burns for ages. Highway signal flares burn for 15mins and will ignite even wet logs. But for size and weight, hand sanitize, lighter, knife would be my choice. |
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Kamloops, B.C.
Canada
157 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 10:37 AM
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| will petroleum jelly burn on its own? Dryer lint you say? Something new to try next time out. I was saving the dryer lint for my eco line of down jacket substitutes, but what the heck. |
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Trail blazin', backcountry bushwackin', pine huntin', photo takin', long winded story teller
3838 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 1:42 PM
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I just use those barbaque starters.
They come in white squares and each individually wrapped in plastic although they still start burning even when wet.
There are the cubes and the waffers that you can brake down to the size you want.
Never failed to build a fire even under the toughest conditions with them.
Usually get the fire going with one cube with damp twigs, beard, dead grass, or bark.
Try to use dead roots to burn as they contain the most sap.
Can be purchased in any Canadian Tire Store usually in the barbeque section. |
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Port Moody, BC
Canada
544 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 7:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cherry Pirate
So what should I be packing that is light and reliable to start a fire? Preferably cheap, too. I would say the issue was I simply couldn't get the tinder to burn long or hot enough to ignite the larger tinder in any significant way.
Get a bottle of fire starter. Available at any department store or gas station. Burns extremely well and is relatively light weight. When firewood around you is wet, get an axe and try to find thicker logs. Deeper inside they should be dry enough to start a fire. Once you have a fire going, then place wet wood around the fire pit so it dries while the fire is going. Using fire starter and this method I was able to start fire in seconds after a pouring rain. |
Edited by - Arnold on 06/25/2012 7:41 PM |
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Langley, BC
Canada
1078 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 7:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by blackfly
What surface is the fire built on? If the ground is really wet or damp that will have a detrimental effect as well - it will seem that the fire will just get going nicely when it turns into a smoldering mess for seemingly no good reason. What's happened is the moisture is drawn up into your fire and puts it out. When the ground is wet I'll make sure that I can build a fire on something dry that will burn for at least an hour before it burns through - this gives the ground time to warm up and for the moisture in it to evacuate :)
This has been my number one piece of advice when teaching others how to get a fire going. Dry wood doesn't burn well on wet ground because as soon as the ground heats up the water boils and suffocates the fire.
One thing I do when car camping is split a large piece of firewood and place the two pieces side by side so that cut faces are facing up. Then you have a dry surface to built your fire on and insulate the wet ground from the heat of the fire.
Wet/damp wood needs more time to burn, so for a given heat output of your fire you will need a larger quantity of wood in the fire. A typical wet-wood fire will have a bed a hot coals and a whole bunch of bubbling, sizzling, smoldering wood on top. With dry wood you can keep a fire going with only one to two logs in flame on a bed of coals. With wet wood it's like one log in flame, 4-5 smoldering on top, and a bed of coals.
I like the plastic tube idea. I shall have to add it to my kit. |
Edited by - Matt on 06/25/2012 7:54 PM |
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Manitoba's misadventurin' bushwhackin', dog sloggin', dehydratin', beer drinkin' biggie - who's eager to peak bag Mt Currie in a dress
Squamish
5048 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 9:06 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Matt[/]
I like the plastic tube idea. I shall have to add it to my kit.
I should market that as an 'eyebrow saver kit'! |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
874 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 9:21 PM
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Not to quibble, but the reason wet wood does not burn, and wet ground impedes fires, is that liquid water cannot be heated above 100 degrees. No matter how fancy your fuel source or how much kindling you add, the firewood or ground will not exceed 100 degrees C until the liquid water has been vaporized. Water does not suffocate a fire - it cools the fuel and prevents thermal outgassing.
Two things that I have found useful:
- Light the kindling, place the wet wood on top, then hold a butane stove over the wood (with stove unlit). The burning butane can sometimes dry off a thin layer of wood which may be sufficient to get started.
- Use a different kindling material. Yellow cedar and some hardwoods burn very hot and they can dry off the bulk firewood.
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Edited by - weedWhacker on 06/25/2012 10:09 PM |
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Burnaby, BC
Canada
1294 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 9:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by weedWhacker
liquid water cannot be heated above 100 degrees.
I think the critical temperature of water is higher than the flash point of wood, a point I bring up because it's altogether useless in this discussion  |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
874 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 9:56 PM
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If you meant the critical temperature (ie the temperature at which liquification is no longer possible at any pressure), then you are quite right. That is quite useless.
http://www.webelements.com/periodicity/critical_temperature/
Or, if you are referring to the critical point (ie the combination of pressure and temperature at which all three phases co-exist) then It is equally useless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_point_%28thermodynamics%29
However, if you are trying unsuccessfully to light a large piece of wet wood, it may be helpful to know why it will not light, and by extension what to do about it. Understanding the physics would suggest heating the wood long enough to evaporate enough absorbed water. That will allow the wood to outgass, and hence light.
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Edited by - weedWhacker on 06/25/2012 10:06 PM |
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Burnaby, BC
Canada
1294 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 10:18 PM
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Point being you don't need to completely vaporize the water - what's important is getting wood to or beyond the flash point and sustaining it there.
Latent heat of water's a heat sink, but as long as it sucks enough heat to keep it below the flash point - even above 100 deg C - it won't ignite. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
874 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 10:28 PM
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Ah good, so we agree.
My suggestion was to spray unlit butane on a struggling campfire to evaporate some of the absorbed liguid water from the firewood. Or, use hotter kindling like yellow cedar to achieve the same result. Both methods have worked (sometimes) for me.
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canine loving, machete-toting bushwhacking lake seeker, Indiana Jones hat-wearing off-road 4x4 guru
Surrey Hole, BC
Canada
6784 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 10:46 PM
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many of my fires are started directly on snow, no issues, most good for 2 to 20 people..if fuel is available
Dry hot base is needed for all
many of the above basics work well, build from there.
cool fire = slow ,low lying ,lingering smoke...
Hot base may show smoke, but smoke rises swiftly, near vertical, even if not showing flame, it will catch with the right product.
Dont prod a good fire too much, it will dense up and cool off,airspace is needed between pieces.
Birchbark and cedar bits can make for a very hot fire starter, should be able to make a fire anywhere with it, even on a cold november night in BC. |
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Manitoba's misadventurin' bushwhackin', dog sloggin', dehydratin', beer drinkin' biggie - who's eager to peak bag Mt Currie in a dress
Squamish
5048 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 10:59 PM
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| The wettest, rottenist, mouldiest, crappiest piece of slimy birchbark pulled outta the swamp - will still burn when lit. |
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Trail blazin', backcountry bushwackin', pine huntin', photo takin', long winded story teller
3838 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 11:17 PM
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The main thing is what you are using for tinder and kindling.
It has to be small enough and obsorb heat fast enough and retain it before it can heat more substantial pieces of wood. I have tried rubber and plastic many times and I find they melt to fast and smother itself especially when placed on the ground below the kindling where there is insufficient air flow.
Even anything to do with wax combinations don't work very well because the wax melts away and needs some sort of wick to keep a flame.
Liquid fire starters I find burns to quick and the fluid is gone to fast.
Making up fire starters is just a waste of time because what happens when they run out prematurely and then you have to get two or three different ingrediants to make them up again.
There is just some types of wood and conditions where a fire can not be made.
On the coast there is lots of water absorbing trees and branches, in the alpine many of the wood species are under snow pack 10 months of the year. That stuff is pretty darn hard to get burning. Where as in 40 below temperature up north in the winter most wood species will burn really well and easy to start even the green bark on some tree species.
Make sure when you use twigs and branches they snap easily and do not bend to much before they brake. That determines how dry they are even if they feel wet on the outside.
Make the beginning of your fire in a teepee style so it gets lots of air and use lots of small stuff first before progressing to larger pieces of wood.
Beware of green branches that are evergreens because they will usually flare up a fire when the needles dry but then die out to fast to keep a good solid flame as does gas.
If you buy wood or wood is provided at a campground and cut shavings and spit the wood it could be green wood that will not burn which appears to be dry. I never trust cut wood at campgrounds and look for other wood to use to get the fire going good first with coals then I add the campground cut and split wood.
Cedar sparks alot but burns pretty good, birch bark is the best, pitch on bark on trees especially pine type trees is great and I always watch for it on multiday camping trips and collect it just for fire starter.
But with all the comments and things I tried I still find those barbaque starter cubes and waffers the best. If they can get coal to burn and they hold a flame for a long time then they can dry and burn most wood except green wood and are the best fire starters in my opion. |
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Hope, BC
Canada
7098 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 12:34 PM
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You don't have to be a scientist to light a fire. But it can take some experience of lighting them to get the hang of it. I never use anything other than wood/sticks/shrubs and flame. Those that need additives to light a fire shouldn't be in the bush  . They would possibly die of hypothermia with a bic lighter in their hands.
A few keys:
Shrub, dry shrub or dry sticks/twigs/bark plenty of
Kindling, plenty of
Dry logs
Work your way up from the dry twigs, get the fire going good with the twigs first. Then once the fire is going good with put a few pieces of kindling in. Don't over do it with large pieces, and let it breath lots. As the fire grows, add bigger pieces of log/wood. So many people smother the fire with a heavy/large piece of wood which won't burn in the beginning stages of the fire.
Next grab your marshmellows and hot dogs & a stick  .
Enjoy! |
Edited by - AcesHigh on 06/26/2012 12:35 PM |
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opinionated-stove huggin'-fleece wearin'-arse burnin' hill virgin
Here
Canada
4642 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 12:35 PM
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My fire kit.
The firesteel is a Gobspark Armageddon, probably the best misch metal firesteel I have ever used and much superior to the Swedish Light My Fire ones.
In my kit there is
1. A flint and steel
2. Cotton balls (real cotton)
3. Fatwood
4. Jute twine
5. Amadou (processed from tinder fungus)
6. Rubber strips
7. Char cloth
8. Stormproof matches
9. Esbit tablet
10. Tea candle
When I'm headed somewhere really wet, like my winter camp in Olympic National Park, I'll often carry an additional pouch with fatwood kindling sticks and birch bark. My little metal tin, lighter, and a candle lantern also will go in it.
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Fire trouble
