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Calgary, Alberta
Canada
88 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 11:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by FamilyGuy
quote:
Originally posted by Nadine
But it goes against the whole idea of trying to not take extra gear that you likely won't use.
I agree that a 0 or -3 C bag is likely going to cut it in the Rockies, but why not take 200g extra in down instead of extra clothes? One extra jacket or sweater will weight more than 200g.
Because you would already be wearing the clothes around camp to stay warm in those temperatures (or even hiking with some of it). By using this clothing to supplement your sleep system you can actually pack lighter by being able to take a lighter, less absolutely warm bag. In effect, there is no redundancy and you are hitting 'two birds with one stone.'
Same idea as using trekking poles as the frame for your shelter. Or a rain poncho as shelter. ETC.
This is one of the primary tenets of lightweight backpacking and which works very well in practice.
But I agree with you - again I am only saying that for the Rockies most of you will take a warmer bag then a Summerlite and would recommend your friends do the same. I am not arguing that the Summerlite is not a great bag. Familyguy if you hike in the Rockies with a Summerlite regularly kudos to you.
We have 3 down bags for summer use, -3C, -7C and -10-12C.
For the Rockies we generally always take the -7C bag. Of course the -3C bag would have been fine 75% of the time. And we do take the -3C bag sometimes and just suffer through it if need be wearing every stitch of our wool camp clothes.
But I still argue that you can save more weight by not bringing extra clothes and bringing a slightly warmer bag. And I think we are getting off topic about talking about lightweight or ultralite hiking, I think the OP is a pretty average hiker. I am not even what I would call a lite hiker as my baseweight for multidays is around 16kg (for 7 night hike). |
Edited by - Nadine on 06/25/2012 11:44 AM |
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Calgary, Alberta
Canada
57 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 11:31 AM
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Being from Alberta I bring a warm base layer on EVERY trip so layering is never a issue. I also use that base layer as my P.J's...Usually they don't get used during the day and only as PJ's kept in their own stuff sack with my sleeping toque,socks and ipod. I only listen to music at night if I get the night time hebbi jebies 
As a mom and resedent of Alberta my entire life its wise to always have that extra warm cloths with you. That base layer has saved many a person from unexpected cold weather and dangerouse cold.
My sleeping bag is also rated to -10 but I do winter camp and at -27 with the base layer in a good tent I am still toasty warm.
Once you spend time cold you will never leave home without it again!!!
My 7day cloths are...base layer, shorts(summer, extra base layer for winter),2 shirts, one long pant (I have one for summer use and a different one for winter use), one coat again a different for winter vrs summer, gators, underware one bra and 5+socks. with all this there is enough options to be warm or cool and not be over packed:-)
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 opinionated-stove huggin'-fleece wearin'-arse burnin' hill virgin
Here
Canada
4642 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 12:29 PM
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| BarbaraB, it sounds like you have put a lot of thought into your gear and it appears that you have done a good job. As you can see from the variety of opinions, there is no one right piece of gear for everyone. Now that you're kitted out, good luck on your WCT trip and have fun! |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3508 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 12:39 PM
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An ultralight -7C bag is ~300g heavier, this is true. It's also larger. I don't change my layering system for my sleeping bag. It's set. So, if I do carry my lightest sleeping bag, I'm not compensating with extra clothes.
The problem is when you say "what's another 200g, or 300g, or..." Before you know it, your pack weighs (not weights, btw) a lot more. If someone has the sleeping ability to use a super light bag, hey, go for it.
It also depends on where you're going. There are no maintained backcountry camps in Banff or Jasper above treeline. If you're not random camping, then you're going to be camped primarily below 2000M.
Now, as I said earlier, I normally carry a -7C bag because I'm a ridiculously cold sleeper. Also, my next bag up is a +5C bag, not a 0C bag. I must own a -7C bag because I spend time in a tent in all four seasons, so spring and fall use is nice without having to carry my big winter bag. Many people spend 95% of their time out in the summer months, and so they can typically get away with a not-as-warm bag.
No matter the anticipated weather, if I were planning a very long backpack this year, my +5C bag would be going. We did the Glacier Trail from Sask Crossing to the Jasper townsite a number of years ago. Just over 200km of backcountry travel, and EVERY gram counted as we were self supported from the get-go. We had every morsel of food in our packs on day one. |
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1097 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 2:44 PM
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quote:
But I agree with you - again I am only saying that for the Rockies most of you will take a warmer bag then a Summerlite and would recommend your friends do the same. I am not arguing that the Summerlite is not a great bag. Familyguy if you hike in the Rockies with a Summerlite regularly kudos to you.
Oh no, I don't fit in that bag. Too wide of shoulders.
Even below freezing, I use a quilt supplemented with down clothing that I would wear around camp anyway. Works for me in minimizing pack weight but YMMV.
+1 to what John said. |
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Calgary, Alberta
Canada
88 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 2:48 PM
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Okay I agree we all have different needs for hiking in the Rockies!
+1 to everyone 
I'm still going to tell my less experienced friends to use a warmer bag, and I will let everyone else hike naked if they want to!
I need a drink...
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3508 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 3:05 PM
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If I were counseling a beginner (and I have many times) on buying their one do-all bag, I'd recommend something in the -7C range. It's probably the most versatile temp rating.
For someone with more experience and a better of idea of how they sleep, etc, then it's all up in the air. |
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1097 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 4:34 PM
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Yes, really no right or wrong way and personal experience trumps all. My perspective tends to be from the UL perspective, but that isn't for everyone!
Pass the pitcher over here....
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65 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 5:55 PM
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My 2 cents.
I use the MEC Merlin -3 Celcius for summer backpacking. I haven't used it on a WCT trail hike, but I probably would. I wouldn't go to a 0 celcius or any + rated bag for a backpacking bag in the rockies or any where that involved subalpine camping. On many, summer trips frozen dew/frost is the norm in the early hours of the morning - especially when a weather system is moving through. If a person were doing spring and fall backpacking I would use a -7 bag for some of those trips.
The layer system has worked well for me on cold nights. Socks, long johns, toque, soft shell, down jacket are all at my disposal when it gets chilly. I also use a Hubba and that adds several degrees of warmth when all zipped up.
The Hubba is small but okay for me 5' 8" tall. The vestibule is small - just barely okay for my 65L pack.
The neoair mattress is great for how light, compact and comfortable it is.
I have used a tarp in Washington, Oregon and California at low elevations and was happy. I wouldn't use a tarp at high elevations. Tarps suck when there are mosquitoes and you have to make a little hole in your sleeping bag around your face to breathe through. This can be really hot and uncomfortable.
A tarp might work well on the WCT if you had a decent ground sheet and could get out of the wind. Driving rain would be a challenge.
I have slept under the stars lots on the prairies when the weather is good and not buggy and that really is the most
memorable.
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Calgary
69 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 7:13 PM
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Definitely great comments, everyone! I never expected to get this much feedback and now am munching through all of dinner while just trying to catch up from the day :-).
As is obvious, we all have different needs even if we attempted all the same routes. It takes time to figure out one's personal preferences, what works for each of us and what doesn't. If someone who's never backpacked before but wanted to give it a try around here (Alberta Rockies), I'd definitely suggest something more like a -7ºC bag. Females also tend to get colder faster, so that could be a factor as well. I don't believe that a sleeping bag is everything though - what tent you have (lots of mesh vs. a 4-season sauna), as well as other gear all add to the sleeping system as someone mentioned. I carry something down year-round. Plus a fleece and/or Icebreaker, mitts and a toque, the emergency blanket as part of the emergency kit, etc., so all items can combine to make a warmer system.
I also generally sleep below 2,000m as I prefer to set up camp somewhere for maybe a couple of nights and then head up higher for a day hike or scramble inbetween. Anything to early June or from September onward, knowing myself I'd likely resort to my -12ºC bag. I'm guessing the Summerlite will really be a summer bag for backpacking (for myself anyways) as opposed to a 3-season bag (I believe Western Mountaineering even just calls it a summer bag, whereas other retailers call it a 3-season).
And also, as someone mentioned, I know that stuffing it down to a tennis ball isn't great :-). It's what I've had to do as I've had backpacks bursting at the seams (I refuse to go beyond 60L as I know I'd just fill it and take more = more weight). Now that I have my gear laid out, volume is also decreasing. I like the notion of just letting the items above it compress it to whatever it needs to be - thank you for those comments.
As for the Hubba Hubba, it's happily set up in my living room, complete with sleeping pad, sleeping bag, lantern, etc. One of these worknights I might just crawl in :-). To be honest the thing feels like a mansion, so will test that out this weekend as well. I was quite impressed as I managed to get it up in 2 minutes (under ideal living room conditions :-o ). Love the amount of mesh, the two very spacious pockets, and loops everywhere to hang stuff. Add a short piece of paracord and you can have clothes lines for some decent stuff in there.
Again, thank you all for all your feedback! It's great to see discussion (about the good, bad, and ugly - j/k about the last one :-) ). That's how we learn more though - hearing others' stories and coming across things that make us think and assess our own gear and whatnot. |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3796 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 7:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nadine
I would think a general rule is to have a bag warmer than 0C for hiking in the Rockies.
My point is that a general rule is irrelevant, and not grounds to inform an individual who has backpacked and knows her own needs that she has bought the wrong thing.
If a person asks me what they should buy for Rockies backpacking, I'll suggest something warmer than that. But a person who has chosen to buy a not-super-warm bag isn't necessarily wrong - they probably just have a different body.
As I said, I have one friend who spends summers in the Rockies in a +5 bag. And not by additionally layering - he's just insanely hot (but a good tent buddy!). It wouldn't work for me, but it doesn't mean it doesn't work for him.
Whether it makes more sense to bring a down jacket (which you can wear in the bag if needed), or a warmer bag (which you can crawl into earlier if needed) probably depends on your backpacking style.
There's a lot of logic in bringing a bag suitable for the vast majority of the nights one will encounter, and depending on additional clothing and survival rating for the very rare extremely-much-colder nights, rather than bringing more bag than necessary all the time. |
Edited by - Rachelo on 06/25/2012 7:33 PM |
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1097 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 7:34 PM
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| We haven't even discussed the fact that a sleeping bag is only half the equation and you get much of your warmth from your sleeping pad. Use a warmer sleeping pad and use a less warm sleeping bag. So as Rachelo said, generalizations cannot be made. |
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Calgary
69 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 8:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by FamilyGuy
We haven't even discussed the fact that a sleeping bag is only half the equation and you get much of your warmth from your sleeping pad. Use a warmer sleeping pad and use a less warm sleeping bag. So as Rachelo said, generalizations cannot be made.
I was waiting for someone to bring that up :-). For the longest time I would even carry a tarp that was metallic on one side and put it under the sleeping pad to reflect more warmth. Totally makes it warm from the ground up. |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3508 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 8:37 PM
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Yeah, I've been using warm pads for a long time now, and wow, what a difference. Tips on a warm night:
1. Bag and pad, as discussed.
2. Slow release fats at bed time, like cashews. Really works!
3. Pee. Holding it burns energy your body could use to keep you warm, and also, keeping your full bladder warm is a waste of heat.
4. Go to bed warm. Don't exert to the point of getting sweaty, but a little pre-bed activity to make sure you're not cold when crawling into your bag really helps.
5. Extra clothes can help, but make sure you don't wear too much to bed, as you can compress the loft of your bag. |
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Calgary
69 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 10:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by johngenx
Yeah, I've been using warm pads for a long time now, and wow, what a difference. Tips on a warm night:
1. Bag and pad, as discussed.
2. Slow release fats at bed time, like cashews. Really works!
3. Pee. Holding it burns energy your body could use to keep you warm, and also, keeping your full bladder warm is a waste of heat.
4. Go to bed warm. Don't exert to the point of getting sweaty, but a little pre-bed activity to make sure you're not cold when crawling into your bag really helps.
5. Extra clothes can help, but make sure you don't wear too much to bed, as you can compress the loft of your bag.
Great suggestions, though I'm sure that the next time I'm in a tent and have to go, I'll be wondering whether keeping all that urine warm in my bladder is draining me of 0.1ºC or whether I could squeeze a couple of degrees out of it. If the latter, then even more reason for a 0ºC bag ;-). |
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1097 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 08:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by johngenx
Yeah, I've been using warm pads for a long time now, and wow, what a difference. Tips on a warm night:
1. Bag and pad, as discussed.
2. Slow release fats at bed time, like cashews. Really works!
3. Pee. Holding it burns energy your body could use to keep you warm, and also, keeping your full bladder warm is a waste of heat.
4. Go to bed warm. Don't exert to the point of getting sweaty, but a little pre-bed activity to make sure you're not cold when crawling into your bag really helps.
5. Extra clothes can help, but make sure you don't wear too much to bed, as you can compress the loft of your bag.
The Moderators should 'sticky' this. Nothing to add.
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Calgary, Alberta
Canada
88 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 08:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by FamilyGuy
quote:
Originally posted by johngenx
Yeah, I've been using warm pads for a long time now, and wow, what a difference. Tips on a warm night:
1. Bag and pad, as discussed.
2. Slow release fats at bed time, like cashews. Really works!
3. Pee. Holding it burns energy your body could use to keep you warm, and also, keeping your full bladder warm is a waste of heat.
4. Go to bed warm. Don't exert to the point of getting sweaty, but a little pre-bed activity to make sure you're not cold when crawling into your bag really helps.
5. Extra clothes can help, but make sure you don't wear too much to bed, as you can compress the loft of your bag.
The Moderators should 'sticky' this. Nothing to add.
What, wait, can't I start an argument about #5?
I would disagree completely (not about the too much clothes part) but about compressing the loft of the bag with extra clothes. That likely happens with or without extra clothes.
With an insulated pad system the loft of the underside of the sleeping bag becomes redundant (and many would argue the down under us in general is completely compressed while we sleep and probably does not add that much insulation). Insulated pad with down quilt least redundant and likely lightest.
Okay I am going to go pee because I am cold from drinking all that beer
And I honestly don't need the last word so someone post something.
And we are off tomorrow to do a WCT trail yo-yo (150km) in 4 days, won't top Familyguy's 3.5 days but we will give it a shot! |
Edited by - Nadine on 06/26/2012 08:47 AM |
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1097 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 09:33 AM
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Have a great time. I was out there in late May of this year and the trail was in remarkably poor shape at the North end. Really, some of that boardwalk needs to be pulled out and discarded because of the exposed nails. Don't forget Nadine - you were the inspiration for the Yo Yo!
Looks like you will have great weather. Hopefully you will see this fella....
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44 Posts
44 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 09:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nadine
Nice loft of down and seems pretty warm (in just below freezing temps), the baffles now run down the body instead of around which is good because the down used to get shifted off to the sides.
quote:
Originally posted by Nadine
loft of the underside of the sleeping bag becomes redundant (and many would argue the down under us in general is completely compressed while we sleep and probably does not add that much insulation)
Horizontal baffles without interruption are the best of both worlds if you ask me. The ability to shift the down from the underside of my WM Sycamore to the top, or vice versa was a strong selling point for me. I've often wondered whether there's any penalty to the longevity of the bag with doing that often (would you be more likely to damage the fabric or is it possible to mess up the down?) but I wouldn't give the ability to somewhat adjust the level of insulation for anything.
quote:
Originally posted by Nadine
And I honestly don't need the last word so someone post something.
Enjoy your trip and take lots of pics! :) |
Edited by - Brianrieta on 06/26/2012 09:49 AM |
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Calgary, Alberta
Canada
88 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 12:21 PM
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Oh shoot forgot to wish OP a great WCT trip! We just booked the WCT 3 days ago after I read this thread - didn't think we would do it again after doing it about 14 times in the last 8 years but we thought what the heck, can't break a streak now!
Have a good one Barbara and don't pack extra stuff, you will kick yourself climbing vertically on the ladders if you do! And if you ask Monique about the photo of the couple who got married on the WCT you can see a pic of my hubbie and I and Monique will talk your ear off all about it (she gave us cheesecake for our wedding cake, nice lady)!
And thanks for all the great discussion over sleeping bags etc. You guys would be fun to meet up with a chat. Has anyone ever thought of having a Clubtread Alberta "Do" - where we meet up and eat, drink, argue etc.?
(and good one about pushing down around in horizontal baffles to top of body, totally makes sense Brianrieta! - and FG we are whittling our pack down now inspired by your fastpack hiking -I aspire to be an ultralite but I am having trouble giving up my Big Agnes sleeping pad which is so nice for my hips and back, but I might run out now to be the NeoAir to give it a try).
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Lightweight Gear for West Coast Trail
