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Maple Ridge, BC
Canada
344 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 02:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by FamilyGuy
which will render synthetics obsolete....
If that post about the price points of down are to be trusted, there will always be a synthetic market. |
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1097 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 09:11 AM
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| Economies of scale will help once the large producers, including MEC, start producing bags with this down. Synthetic sleeping bags will be left for car campers. |
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Calgary, Alberta
Canada
88 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 09:11 AM
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Have you checked out any of the MEC down mummy bags?
We have a single wall tent (which translates to more issues with humidity and condensation in the tent). We have tried quite a few sleeping bags (always down to keep weight and stuff size down) and have found that the WM bags can actually have more problems with retaining humidity in them because of their shells. And they are so friggin' narrow - okay if you don't flip back on forth from side to side in your sleeping bag but awful if you do and if you are a woman with any hips it can feel tight in the bag - for guys does not seem as much an issue.
We have been using the MEC down mummy bags for the last 8 years or so, specifically the Merlin -3 bag for the WCT. Just came back from the Pyrenees mountains and the bag was great in freezing conditions as well. Bonus is that it stuffs into an Outdoor Research sil nylon 1L stuff sack! I think the regular bag weights about 775g. Shell is still nicely water resistant (condensation drips bounce off our bag) but we push our body moisture through the bag so minimal dampness in the bag (at least compared to WM). The bonus for us is that we can take a long bag and a regular bag (different side zips) and zip the bags together to maximize heat when needed (obviously not needed on WCT).
http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/SleepingBags/DownMummyBags/PRD~5025-523/mec-merlin-df-sleeping-bag-3c.jsp
For Alberta and generally higher elevation hiking we use the Merlin -7 bag which stuffs into a 2L sil nylon stuff sack - MEC has just changed the bag a bit and now it only comes as a -10 C bag. |
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Calgary
69 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 11:23 AM
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For the sleeping bag I did end up going for the Western Mountaineering Summerlite 0ºC bag. It weighs in at exactly 525g as advertised and the stuff sack that it came with is 29g. I've taken some photos comparing it to my MEC Hybrid -12ºC bag. Interestingly enough, I'm finding the size of the WM Summerlite is larger than advertised. I was a bit concerned about it fitting a bit tight (I'm average size and 5'-8"), but it's actually very comparable to the MEC Hybrid. Ditto for the loft - it's fluffier than advertised as well. Of course I haven't tried it outdoors yet as I just got it a couple of days ago, but so far it seems like a wise choice. Apart from WCT, the bulk of its use would be in the Rockies where it's much drier. For the early/late season or winter trips I'd still take the Hybrid -12ºC.
    
P.S. - These photos were taken just a few minutes after I pulled the bags out of their stuff sacks, so they may loft a bit more with time. |
Edited by - BarbaraB on 06/24/2012 1:23 PM |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3502 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 11:59 AM
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| Excellent choice. That bag will last decades if cared for. I wish I'd opted for the tiny extra weight over the BeoThuk and got the extra down and full zipper. |
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1097 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 12:11 PM
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And there folks is the visual difference between a very high end down bag and a synthetic bag rated to 12c warmer. No comparison.
Enjoy the loft!! I bet you sleep in it tonight. In the house. On the floor...... |
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Calgary
69 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 1:26 PM
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johngenx - I almost went for the Beothuk, but for me the deciding factor was also the full zipper and just the extra bit of warmth. Although I do get cold easily, I find that I hardly ever zip up a sleeping bag fully, so end up using them more like a blanket.
familyguy - The MEC Hybrid -12ºC is half down, half synthetic (hence the Hybrid). I don't even want to think of the size/weight of a full synthetic bag. |
Edited by - BarbaraB on 06/24/2012 1:28 PM |
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1078 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 4:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BarbaraB
familyguy - The MEC Hybrid -12ºC is half down, half synthetic (hence the Hybrid). I don't even want to think of the size/weight of a full synthetic bag.
I think you'd be surprised what some synthetic bags can do. I think my North Face Fission would match, at the least, your summerlite in warmth, and judging by your pics, blows away your hybrid in loft.
Of course it's a pound heavier than the summerlite, but it compresses very small, and it's hardly a heavyweight. Much lighter than the hybrid. |
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Calgary, Alberta
Canada
88 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 4:35 PM
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The Summerlite is a great investment but not for hiking in the Rockies - it will have to be your west coast bag or for hiking in warm climates or for sleeping in your backyard. It's cool at night (often with frost) at elevation and throw in some rain (there is a lot of rain in the summer in the Rockies too) soaking you a bit and you can see how a 0 C bag is insufficient (and not being well prepared for risk of exposure in the Rockies).
You would have benefited from buying a warmer down bag than a 0C bag to be able to get use of it in the Rockies. We could have sold you a -3 C bag for you to use for one hike - we have 4 of them and just got a new set.
And by the way your bag will stuff into a size 1 (2L) Outdoor Research silnylon compression bag - takes a tiny bit of work to stuff but puffs up nicely once in the tent and great way to save space in your pack. |
Edited by - Nadine on 06/24/2012 5:11 PM |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 8:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nadine
The Summerlite is a great investment but not for hiking in the Rockies - it will have to be your west coast bag or for hiking in warm climates or for sleeping in your backyard. It's cool at night (often with frost) at elevation and throw in some rain (there is a lot of rain in the summer in the Rockies too) soaking you a bit and you can see how a 0 C bag is insufficient (and not being well prepared for risk of exposure in the Rockies).
You would have benefited from buying a warmer down bag than a 0C bag to be able to get use of it in the Rockies. We could have sold you a -3 C bag for you to use for one hike - we have 4 of them and just got a new set.
And by the way your bag will stuff into a size 1 (2L) Outdoor Research silnylon compression bag - takes a tiny bit of work to stuff but puffs up nicely once in the tent and great way to save space in your pack.
Different bodies work differently, and just because it's not what you would choose doesn't mean someone else isn't sufficiently prepared.
I'm not sure what you're thinking with the rain - if it's raining in your tent where your sleeping bag is, you have bigger problems, and I don't know anyone who goes to bed in wet clothes they wore out in the rain...
As for temperature, there's a lot of variance in what works for people based on the heat of a body as well as what one likes to wear to bed.
I did a backpacking trip two years ago where I slept in a -12 bag, and a friend slept in a +5, and we were both comfortable (and thinking the other was nuts). |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 9:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BarbaraB
I just wanted to note that if you are in the habit of backpacking with the bag in the stuff sack it comes with, you can tuck it down much smaller. My WM Ultralite fits comfortably in a stuff sack maybe 50-60% the size of what it came with. |
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Calgary, Alberta
Canada
88 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 9:16 PM
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I would think a general rule is to have a bag warmer than 0C for hiking in the Rockies. I would have no problems suggesting a 0C bag for coastal hiking but for an investment of that kind of money (and she is only buying one good light bag) she would have done better with a warmer bag. Plus the fact she alluded to wanting to have her own gear and tent so if she was solo tenting - a 0C bag is not sufficient for hiking in the Rockies.
Rain as in the stuff from the sky - and hiking for hours not realizing that your core temperature is dropping - so that as soon as your stop moving you continue to drop your core temperature. That's when your down bag can be a life saver (once you get all your wet clothes off). I was just suggesting that a 0C bag is a bit thin on the insulating factor for smart hiking in the Rockies.
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Calgary
69 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2012 : 9:56 PM
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Rachel - No, I never pack my sleeping bags in the stuff sacks they come with when backpacking. I only took the photo in them for a simple size comparison. I know some people will argue with loft, etc., but generally the night before I finish packing a big backpack I'll put the sleeping bag in a compression sack, sit on it, and get it down as much as possible. That easily compresses it 50% from the regular stuff sacks.
Nadine - I do generally get cold easily, but I have tried sleeping bags from -12ºC to 0ºC. I have been soaked from head to toe, set up a tent in the rain, and still kept my gear dry. I bring a warm base layer and as a backup also a stainless steel bottle that can serve as a hot water bottle. Having slept in below-freezing temperatures, I can say that I was always warm. In fact, I generally use a sleeping bag more like a blanket. It would be foolish for one not to take enough clothes/gear/emergency equipment to not be able to make it through colder temperatures than expected - that's what I'll use extra layers for and if need be, there's always the emergency blankets, etc. I'm not ditching my -12ºC bag; I will simply select which of these two is a better choice for a given trip that I go on. I've been going to a lot of huts as well and there really is no point in overpacking. In the Rockies I wouldn't go backpacking solo. I am only considering that for WCT due to logistics, my regular hiking buddies not being as keen on it, and to just get away from it all - a week of solitude (apart from the crowded campsites I guess).
Also, after having researched tents for a few weeks now and reading everyone's opinions (not to mention a 20% off sale at Atmosphere in Calgary), I did get the Hubba Hubba today. True, it may not be the lightest if I do end up going solo on WCT, but I think overall it will best serve my use - one or two-nighter trips in the Rockies (about 2 pounds per person if shared by 2 people), some BC coast stuff, and even the odd car camping trip. I will actually try to sell my MEC TGV four-season tent that I was recently given. I've used it one night and decided that that thing is way too hot for me. Great tent as I do like it otherwise though - seems pretty bomb-proof and I'm sure decent for winter outings, but I'll definitely stick to the huts for those cold nights :-).
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Edited by - BarbaraB on 06/24/2012 10:05 PM |
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8 Posts |
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Calgary, Alberta
Canada
88 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 08:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JamesCan
For the sleeping bag, does anyone have experience with the new 2012 water resistant MEC merlin -3: http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/SleepingBags/DownMummyBags/PRD~5025-523/mec-merlin-df-sleeping-bag-3c.jsp.
Yes! Just bought the new versions of these 3 weeks ago (as the down in our old ones was getting a bit thin from my obsessive washing of the bags but that's another story) and used them in the Pyrenees.
Definitely a step up in shell integrity from the previous version - original shell seemed a bit fragile like the similar Ultralite WM bag for same temperature rating.
Notice an improvement in water resistance to the shell without loss of breathability and this is definitely better at feet.
Zipper seems to grab far less to shell when opening and closing.
Packs into 2L compression stuff sack (OR).
Can be combined with opposite side zip sleeping bag.
Nice loft of down and seems pretty warm (in just below freezing temps), the baffles now run down the body instead of around which is good because the down used to get shifted off to the sides. Hood closure still good.
Apparently down has been treated to resist moisture - so this might be why we are noticing the improved water resistance of shell and yet not feeling the down get damp from our body humidity.
We recently used them in a tent for a week camping at 2000-2300m in freezing temperatures (likely as low as -5C with fresh snow and freezing slush couple of nights). We weren't expecting those temperatures and should have brought a warmer bag but with our lightweight merino wool underwear and toques we were warm. |
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1097 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 08:19 AM
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A few things from my perspective:
-'layering in' with insulative clothing will easily push that WM bag to -10C. It is all about a sleep system and if you are relying just your sleeping bag to warm you up after a long day in the rain, you are missing the opportunity to have a second level of defence (warm clothing).
-The WM has been EN tested to below freezing so it is more than warm enough for 3 seasons in the Rockies.
-stuffing your down bag into a 1L sack is going to kill it over time, reducing the long term life of your bag. I would hate to do that to a high quality bag like the WM that should last decades if you take care of it. Not to mention it will pack like a hard rock. Better to buy a larger sack or liner and stuff your bag into the bottom of your pack allowing it to fill up every mm of space at the bottom. Protects the bag and also provides better weight distribution. |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3502 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 09:21 AM
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I agree that the Summerlite bag can easily be used in the Rockies. It's dependent on your sleeping state, what other layers you have, and how much you can suffer if need be.
I took my +5C WM bag on a very long backpack to save weight. Most nights, even being a very cold sleeper, I was fine. We had two very cold (-12C overnight in the beginning of August!) nights that I was cold during, but warmed quickly in the day, and just had a nap in the sun in the afternoon to catch up.
Personally, as I am a VERY cold sleeper, I take my -7C bag most of the time, but if owned a Summerlite (instead of the BeoThuk) I could see many trips that I'd use it for. |
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Calgary, Alberta
Canada
88 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 09:59 AM
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But it goes against the whole idea of trying to not take extra gear that you likely won't use.
I agree that a 0 or -3 C bag is likely going to cut it in the Rockies, but why not take 200g extra in down instead of extra clothes? One extra jacket or sweater will weight more than 200g. With our camp clothes (multiple layers of thin merino wool including a wool hoodie) we have been fine with a -3C bag for those unexpected nights when it gets colder than one could predict. Many an ultralite hiker will use their down bag as a jacket or warming device and forgo carrying a down jacket or other jacket for using around camp.
Stuffing a down bag like the Summerlite or -3C into a 2L compression sack for 8hrs of hiking won't kill it - but yes would be better in a larger stuff sack. But in an effort to keep our packs smaller (really trying to get smaller than a 55L pack for multiday hiking in the Rockies) any reduction in volume is helpful. We spend 3-4 months hiking a year (yes actual hiking time with 60-70 tent nights a year) and can afford to churn through gear, but obviously this is not the norm.
Again, a Summerlite bag might cut it in the Rockies, but I know that most of you would never regularly take a bag like that in the Rockies, moot point. |
Edited by - Nadine on 06/25/2012 10:01 AM |
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282 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 10:08 AM
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Also, after having researched tents for a few weeks now and reading everyone's opinions (not to mention a 20% off sale at Atmosphere in Calgary), I did get the Hubba Hubba today. True, it may not be the lightest if I do end up going solo on WCT, but I think overall it will best serve my use - one or two-nighter trips in the Rockies (about 2 pounds per person if shared by 2 people), some BC coast stuff, and even the odd car camping trip.
Right on! Excellent choice there. I have owned my hubba hubba for 4 years now, lots of good use out of it. Excellent in rain and wind. Great tent for two people! You'll love it! Have fun with it! |
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1097 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 10:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nadine
But it goes against the whole idea of trying to not take extra gear that you likely won't use.
I agree that a 0 or -3 C bag is likely going to cut it in the Rockies, but why not take 200g extra in down instead of extra clothes? One extra jacket or sweater will weight more than 200g.
Because you would already be wearing the clothes around camp to stay warm in those temperatures (or even hiking with some of it). By using this clothing to supplement your sleep system you can actually pack lighter by being able to take a lighter, less absolutely warm bag. In effect, there is no redundancy and you are hitting 'two birds with one stone.'
Same idea as using trekking poles as the frame for your shelter. Or a rain poncho as shelter. ETC.
This is one of the primary tenets of lightweight backpacking and which works very well in practice. |
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Lightweight Gear for West Coast Trail
