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1078 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 12:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
quote:
Originally posted by DCIPHER
In all seriousness, I've heard so many definitions of scrambling, many of which have big subjective components, that I agree the whole thing is rather convoluted. Usually when I explain scrambling to people, I say "any non-technical way up a mountain, at the easiest level it's just a steep hike...at the hardest level it's borderline free-climbing". So I include those "hike" scrambles, probably largely because the great Kane includes them. Even of the ones that have some hands-on sections, often times, the section amounts to about 10 seconds to 2 min. out of 4 hours.....so to me, what stands out about the scrambles tend to be the fact that a summit is attained, and usually quite a lot of height gain is involved.
I think your definition and standards have merit, and might well be better suited to differentiating the two, but, it surpises me to hear you declare it so definitively! LOL
quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
I would note that when "the great Kane" included peaks like Yamnuska, Ha Ling, and the like, they *were* scrambles. Consider when the first edition was published! And even the second. Those hikes became trailed non-scrambles because of his book bringing knowledge to the people. Back when he wrote them in, you did still need to play around to find the route, and trips like Heart didn't have trail markers screwed in. So they were scrambles, but aren't really now that they have developed clear trails.
I think some indeed had clear trails even when Kane wrote the book. Certainly ones like Fairview, Paget, Piran, Cascade, and many others did, and he includes those in the book, and even refers to "beaten" in trails in the guide. (though he describes some scrambles as "hikes", which may confirm that some scrambles can be just steep hikes) Others, notably the big scree lumps don't require any route finding, so they would have to be eliminated from your definition as well. I think your definition is clearly more stringent than Kane's. Even when Kane wrote the book, a good portion (majority?) of easy scrambles and many moderates would not have qualified by your definition.
Of course all of these things are somewhat subjective. When I went up Paget, no less than 3 of 4 parties I ran into going up, had turned around. Two women who told me they had a lot of experience, and belonged to the alpine club, reported running into another fellow who they joined at the lookout because he had made several attempts at Paget, though so far the summit had eluded him! Despite his guidance, all had to turn around describing it being incredibily steep, loose, and dangerous, standing on huge boulders about to fall. Upon finding the man up at the lookout, he confirmed that he had made previous attempts, and declared it life threatning and "impossible". In anger and disgust, he proclaimed he was done with the mountain, and that maybe if I had a rope, and wished to risk life and limb, I could make it.
A few minutes later, starting up the scree, I ran into a couple leisurely coming down from the summit, who seemed appropriately baffled by the descriptions I had heard, and rightly described some loose scree and rock, but no real difficulties.
quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
I don't think the summit definition is sufficient, as no-one mistakes Mount Allan for a scramble, since it is clearly a summit with a massive amount of elevation gain, but an official trail.
Well that's not true. Some do. It's rather pedestrian to be certain, and more experienced scramblers would undoubtedly view it privately as a hike...and perhaps even rate it as borderline, but some classify it as a "scramble". I don't necessarily believe it should or shouldn't be, but it is called that by some.
[quote]Originally posted by Rachelo
Mount Burke is also a hike, as is Junction Mountain. Popular acceptance does suggest that steep and summit is contributory but insufficient.
That's fair, but popular acceptance suggests your criteria are contributory but not required! Again, though, if you wish to push your definition, I might sign-on, but in the absence of a consistent definition, at this point, it's only an opinion....and the popular consensus seems broader from what I perceive.
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1078 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 12:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
quote:
Originally posted by kaniukr
It seems a lovely lake but not too exciting walk up. But then again that's often the case with hikes, no pain, no gain.
Helen Lake is an exception to this. the 8km to the lake are full of flowers, and with regular glimpses through the trees out to Bow Peak and Crowfoot Glacier. Then the lake is in a spectacular meadow after a nice waterfall, and if you still have energy, it just gets better if you hike up to the plateau above the lake for more view. If you still have energy, every step up towards Cirque Peak brings more awesome view, but if you run out and have to turn around at any point, you've still already had an awesome day.
Sure, I sometimes to hikes that are drudging just for the end result, but the best hikes have a nice trail and an awesome ending. And when you're only visiting for a short period, you can probably be choosy enough to find them.
Larch Valley --> Sentinel Pass --> Paradise Valley/Giant's Steps/Lake Annette is another example of a long hike with lots of neat stuff along the way and not just a trudge to a destination.
Indefatigable traverse is also incredible for lakes, meadows, flowers, and incredible rugged mountain view from the ridge. Of course, the lakes are right at the parking lot...so not exactly isolated feeling.
But no long march requiered...scenery starts immediately and continues all the way through, only growing better. |
Edited by - DCIPHER on 03/29/2012 12:23 PM |
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876 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 2:03 PM
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Originally posted by kaniukr
Between August 20-23 near Jasper: Sulphur Skyline Trail
I suspect you mean the Jasper Skyline Trail rather than the Sulphur Skyline Trail, given the 3-day time-frame? If that's the case, keep it on your itinerary! |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 2:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by DCIPHER
That's fair, but popular acceptance suggests your criteria are contributory but not required! Again, though, if you wish to push your definition, I might sign-on, but in the absence of a consistent definition, at this point, it's only an opinion....and the popular consensus seems broader from what I perceive.
True. But then, I am looking at a narrower range of opinions. I take as a starting point the definitions given by scrambling and climbing guidebooks. I think that the definition should be the standing point rather than history, and that a route once termed a scramble is not thus a scramble in perpetuity when its conditions change. I believe that is the main difference. When the scrambling guidebook was first written, certain things were included because they were routes and not trails, while other trails were excluded. I think that defining scrambling based on the current conditions of a trail that was deemed a scramble fifteen years ago causes confusion.
I also think scrambling is a separate category. A steep hike is a steep hike. To be a scramble, and actually in a different class, it needs to have something other than just being a big hike. |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 3:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by DCIPHER
quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
quote:
Originally posted by kaniukr
It seems a lovely lake but not too exciting walk up. But then again that's often the case with hikes, no pain, no gain.
Helen Lake is an exception to this. the 8km to the lake are full of flowers, and with regular glimpses through the trees out to Bow Peak and Crowfoot Glacier. Then the lake is in a spectacular meadow after a nice waterfall, and if you still have energy, it just gets better if you hike up to the plateau above the lake for more view. If you still have energy, every step up towards Cirque Peak brings more awesome view, but if you run out and have to turn around at any point, you've still already had an awesome day.
Sure, I sometimes to hikes that are drudging just for the end result, but the best hikes have a nice trail and an awesome ending. And when you're only visiting for a short period, you can probably be choosy enough to find them.
Larch Valley --> Sentinel Pass --> Paradise Valley/Giant's Steps/Lake Annette is another example of a long hike with lots of neat stuff along the way and not just a trudge to a destination.
Indefatigable traverse is also incredible for lakes, meadows, flowers, and incredible rugged mountain view from the ridge. Of course, the lakes are right at the parking lot...so not exactly isolated feeling.
But no long march requiered...scenery starts immediately and continues all the way through, only growing better.
I think The Fortress is also a great example. But I was getting the idea that Ross is planning on visiting the parks, and not Kananaskis, so I haven't made any suggestions.
And really, in August, as a tourist, I wouldn't suggest anyone bother with Kananaskis anyways. If you have a couple weeks and want to see the best the Rockies have to offer, it's on the Icefields Parkway, not Highway 40.
I didn't think to ask before - what made you choose the hikes that you listed? |
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Chilliwack
Canada
306 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 3:46 PM
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| If you do berg lake trail make sure you stop and see the ice caves at the toe of robson glacier while doing the snowbird pass. There is no marked trail. |
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Calgary, Alberta
Canada
1186 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 3:53 PM
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RE Scrambling definition discussion: Hiking, Scrambling and Climbing can have blurry borders. There's nothing wrong with that. If you want better classification, such systems do exist. The YDS Class for example, which people will sometimes use to describe the difficulty of a scramble.
Class 1: Walking with a low chance of injury.
Class 2: Simple scrambling, with the possibility of occasional use of the hands. Little potential danger is encountered.
Class 3: Scrambling with increased exposure. A rope can be carried but is usually not required. Falls are not always fatal.
Class 4: Simple climbing, with exposure. A rope is often used. Natural protection can be easily found. Falls may well be fatal.
Class 5: Technical free climbing involving rope, belaying, and other protection hardware for safety. Un-roped falls can result in severe injury or death. |
Edited by - Marko on 03/29/2012 3:56 PM |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 6:27 PM
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| I think the definition between YDS class 2 and class 3 is equally questionable. |
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1078 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 04:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Marko
RE Scrambling definition discussion: Hiking, Scrambling and Climbing can have blurry borders. There's nothing wrong with that. If you want better classification, such systems do exist.
LOL. Funny....just had a conversation today with somebody....even "hiking"...there are a great many people who will say they love "hiking"....and by this they mean going to places that include walking down what is...I kid you not...something resembling a back alley. It is over 2 car widths wide continually, completely flat, goes through the heart of a city, and is groomed with gravel. It is about the same saying you went on a scramble in Nose Hill park.
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1078 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 04:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
quote:
Originally posted by DCIPHER
That's fair, but popular acceptance suggests your criteria are contributory but not required! Again, though, if you wish to push your definition, I might sign-on, but in the absence of a consistent definition, at this point, it's only an opinion....and the popular consensus seems broader from what I perceive.
True. But then, I am looking at a narrower range of opinions. I take as a starting point the definitions given by scrambling and climbing guidebooks. I think that the definition should be the standing point rather than history, and that a route once termed a scramble is not thus a scramble in perpetuity when its conditions change. I believe that is the main difference. When the scrambling guidebook was first written, certain things were included because they were routes and not trails, while other trails were excluded. I think that defining scrambling based on the current conditions of a trail that was deemed a scramble fifteen years ago causes confusion.
I also think scrambling is a separate category. A steep hike is a steep hike. To be a scramble, and actually in a different class, it needs to have something other than just being a big hike.
Well, like I said, I'm not necessarily opposed to a reclassification, or a new definition. I sympathetic to your desire to delineate scrambling from hiking with more stringent requirements. |
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1078 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 04:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
quote:
Originally posted by DCIPHER
quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
quote:
Originally posted by kaniukr
It seems a lovely lake but not too exciting walk up. But then again that's often the case with hikes, no pain, no gain.
Helen Lake is an exception to this. the 8km to the lake are full of flowers, and with regular glimpses through the trees out to Bow Peak and Crowfoot Glacier. Then the lake is in a spectacular meadow after a nice waterfall, and if you still have energy, it just gets better if you hike up to the plateau above the lake for more view. If you still have energy, every step up towards Cirque Peak brings more awesome view, but if you run out and have to turn around at any point, you've still already had an awesome day.
Sure, I sometimes to hikes that are drudging just for the end result, but the best hikes have a nice trail and an awesome ending. And when you're only visiting for a short period, you can probably be choosy enough to find them.
Larch Valley --> Sentinel Pass --> Paradise Valley/Giant's Steps/Lake Annette is another example of a long hike with lots of neat stuff along the way and not just a trudge to a destination.
Indefatigable traverse is also incredible for lakes, meadows, flowers, and incredible rugged mountain view from the ridge. Of course, the lakes are right at the parking lot...so not exactly isolated feeling.
But no long march requiered...scenery starts immediately and continues all the way through, only growing better.
I think The Fortress is also a great example. But I was getting the idea that Ross is planning on visiting the parks, and not Kananaskis, so I haven't made any suggestions.
And really, in August, as a tourist, I wouldn't suggest anyone bother with Kananaskis anyways. If you have a couple weeks and want to see the best the Rockies have to offer, it's on the Icefields Parkway, not Highway 40.
I didn't think to ask before - what made you choose the hikes that you listed?
Yes, I also am a continental divide guy, having said that the mountain view from Indef is rugged enough to match nearly anything, and Kananaskis has some neat mountains that you don't see much of at the divide, like the sawtooth type formations. However, for somebody coming from afar, I also would send them further west. On the other hand, if one has a vehicle, it's still an easy day trip from Louise or Banff to Indef....and one might get an even greater appreciation of the vastness and variety of the Rockies.....in an ideal sampler, I suppose you'd do a couple in Yoho, a couple in Louise, and just work north, south and east.....really there's just too much to see. |
Edited by - DCIPHER on 03/30/2012 04:15 AM |
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972 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 04:37 AM
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just give the guy some answers as to the best hikes OR scrambles he could do. you dont need to get into a big discussion about the definition of a scramble. jeezuz!
how hard could that be?? |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 09:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by nmcan84
just give the guy some answers as to the best hikes OR scrambles he could do. you dont need to get into a big discussion about the definition of a scramble. jeezuz!
how hard could that be??
It's a discussion forum. We discuss things. Often such discussions pop up having been triggered by something else. If you really can't bear to read past a bit of other discussion, I'm sure the thread will get by without you. And if it really bothers the OP, he can request the discussion be taken to another thread. |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 09:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by DCIPHER
Yes, I also am a continental divide guy, having said that the mountain view from Indef is rugged enough to match nearly anything, and Kananaskis has some neat mountains that you don't see much of at the divide, like the sawtooth type formations. However, for somebody coming from afar, I also would send them further west. On the other hand, if one has a vehicle, it's still an easy day trip from Louise or Banff to Indef....and one might get an even greater appreciation of the vastness and variety of the Rockies.....in an ideal sampler, I suppose you'd do a couple in Yoho, a couple in Louise, and just work north, south and east.....really there's just too much to see.
I do a lot in Kananaskis. But every time I do get up to Lake Louise or the Parkway, I remind myself how awesome it is and how I should get back out there more often. I find that the best Kananaskis views are still rows and rows of grey peaks with some green on the bottom, and the similar view but with added more, more attractive lakes, plus glaciers and dolostone further west really adds something. If I only had a week to be here, I probably wouldn't bother with Kananaskis because nice as it is, I think it has little the Parks don't. And excepting the lack of busloads of Japanese tourists at a few sites, I don't feel like Kananaskis has any fewer people anymore.
Personally, I find the Sawtooth range pretty much a mirror of the Sawback range, but I agree with its interestingness. |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 09:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by DCIPHER
LOL. Funny....just had a conversation today with somebody....even "hiking"...there are a great many people who will say they love "hiking"....and by this they mean going to places that include walking down what is...I kid you not...something resembling a back alley. It is over 2 car widths wide continually, completely flat, goes through the heart of a city, and is groomed with gravel. It is about the same saying you went on a scramble in Nose Hill park.
Ah, yeah, I've run into those. "Oh, I love hiking too!" "Oh great, what's your favourite hike?" "Well last year, I went to Heart Creek...."
Or the double definition of 'backpacking'. "Oh wow, I love backpacking too! I've been thinking of backpacking through Europe..." |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2012 : 09:39 AM
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| I am curious as to how you chose your initial ideas to know if you have something particular you want to see about them, or if you had just heard some good things in which case you'd be interested in being steered to another hike that would give you the cool stuff you're looking for but less boring. |
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London
16 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2012 : 3:23 PM
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Hi Rachel, I basically picked some hikes out quite a while ago after reading the Rough Guide's recommended hikes, I think Moon's guidebook too, the Lonely Planet which wasn't much good, and perhaps one or 2 others. If there was a hike that all of them raved about, of which there were still quite a few, I probably googled some images. I'm also a bit restricted because I'm travelling with my partner and 5-year-old, so although she said it was ok for me to go off alone on some long day hikes I didn't want to disappear for ages on multi-day backpacks (although Mt Robson I'm now considering taking 3 days instead of 2, and Floe Lake everyone says should be overnight for the sunset/sunrise). When a tourist trying to do a sort of highlights sampler it's not the perfect way to choose, but the only other way is recommendations like I've had here. Also, if there was a chance I might not find a hiking partner, it seemed more sensible to try and find hikes that might be a bit busier rather than rarely visited long day hikes, just in case anything happens or if they go through areas with a high likelihood/concentration of bears.
Having seen the comments here, I've refined what I'd like to do a bit if people want to join me. As I say I'd like to do FLOE LAKE overnight and probably weekends are easier for other people so August 4th/5th would be good.
I'd like to do Larch Valley/SENTINEL PASS and come down Paradise Valley past Lake Annette as recommended one day between August 11th and 17th.
FAIRVIEW MOUNTAIN one day between August 11 and 17.
Then one of those summits/ridges recommended above ROCKBOUND either between the 11th and 17th or August 29th or 30th, or perhaps the CIRQUE PEAK recommended on August 29 or 30.
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London
16 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 11:54 AM
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Hi anyone thinking of joining me.
I have found a group to go with me to Floe Lake, but I'd still like to do the other 3 long day hikes but have slightly altered my date range.
I'm keen to find partners - probably 3 as I understand these hikes have minimum number of 4 hikers in August because they're in bear areas - for:
FAIRVIEW MOUNTAIN SUMMIT (trailhead near Lake Louise)
MORAINE LAKE-LARCH VALLEY-SENTINEL PASS-DOWN OTHER SIDE TO PARADISE VALLEY-OUT PAST LAKE ANNETTE.
ANY OF THE SUMMITS/RIDGES recommended by others on this thread ABOVE ROCKBOUND LAKE (trailhead nr Castle Junction)
I'm available from August 3rd - 9th and August 13th to 17th at present but obviously if I find partners for a hike a day or 2 in this range would go. Thanks, Ross |
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287 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 12:54 PM
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quote:
Hi anyone thinking of joining me.
I have found a group to go with me to Floe Lake, but I'd still like to do the other 3 long day hikes but have slightly altered my date range.
I'm keen to find partners - probably 3 as I understand these hikes have minimum number of 4 hikers in August because they're in bear areas - for:
FAIRVIEW MOUNTAIN SUMMIT (trailhead near Lake Louise)
MORAINE LAKE-LARCH VALLEY-SENTINEL PASS-DOWN OTHER SIDE TO PARADISE VALLEY-OUT PAST LAKE ANNETTE.
ANY OF THE SUMMITS/RIDGES recommended by others on this thread ABOVE ROCKBOUND LAKE (trailhead nr Castle Junction)
I'm available from August 3rd - 9th and August 13th to 17th at present but obviously if I find partners for a hike a day or 2 in this range would go. Thanks, Ross
I apologize as I am just reviewing this thread today. For what it is worth, my group did Rockbound Lake and the nearby peaks/ridges over two days. We spent the night above Rockbound Lake. Parks Canada even issued us a bivy permit too. This was a fantastic way to visit this area. We were able to scramble Castle Mountain, Stuart Knob, TV Peak, and Helena Ridge in two days. The camping/bivy site above Rockbound Lake is awesome! So, if you had two days, I highly recommend going up Rockbound Lake, up Castle Mountain on the first day, then camping out on the high plateau or higher up. Our group set up our bivy at ~2500m. We melted water from a nearby snowpatch but camping lower down on the plateau and above the lake, you would have running water as Marko mentions, there are numerous streams and water flow over these plateaus above Rockbound Lake. Next day, you could easily summit the remaining peaks including TV Peak with a high elevation start. The ridgewalk between these peaks is fantastic! While we returned via the Rockbound Lake trail, there is a way to descend via the slopes off Protection Mountain. Good luck with your trip. |
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Edmonton, AB
Canada
465 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 1:41 PM
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I haven't read others' comments, but according to my experience, if you do not visit Rockies in a regular basis, you should consider:
Moraine Lake -> Larch Valley -> Sentinel Pass -> Mt. Temple
You can turn around at any point if not comfortable with the scramble towards the summit, and you still gonna have an awesome day. See my photos: http://stevensong.fotki.com/canadian-rockies/lake-louise/2011924-mt-temple/
It took me less than 8 hours. For most people, 8-11 hours is more appropriate. The view is FANTASTIC. This trip so far ranks 2nd on all of the trips I've done. |
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Hiking partners August:Banff/Lake Louise/Jasper
