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London
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2012 : 2:24 PM
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Hi,
I'm touring the Rockies in August and wondered if anyone would like to join me or form a group for the longer day hikes and 2/3 day Berg Lake Trail at Mt Robson. Lake Louise ones probably have a 4-person minimum size in place because it's berry sea season on the trail and bears are about.
These are the ones I'd like to do and the dates I'll be in the areas. Feel free to email me direct at rosskaniuk@hotmail.com
Any time August 3-9 Banff area: combined Corey and Edith passes trail; Floe Lake in Kootenay NP
Any day August 11-19 Lake Louise area: Fairview Mountain summit; Larch Valley/Sentinel Pass; Lake Annette; Rockbound Lake; (also Little and Big Beehive, but will be doing that one at a slower pace with my 5 year old who isn't coming on the other longer ones)
Between August 20-23 near Jasper: Sulphur Skyline Trail
August 24-26: Berg Lake trail 2 or 3 days (I probably have someone to go with on this one, but others are welcome)
Ross |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2012 : 5:48 PM
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I have no idea right now what my August will look like, but if you post again closer to the summer about the Banff-area day trips, I might join you.
A couple suggestions for best use of your time:
-You can see Lake Annette on the same trip as Sentinel Pass. It's actually best done as a U-shaped trip up Larch Valley, over Sentinel Pass, then down the other side through Paradise Valley and by Lake Annette. the Lake is also definitely not worth hiking in just for itself.
-Rockbound Lake isn't worth its reputation. It's a neat lake, yes. But the hike to it is about 8km of boring. The first 6.5km are forest-bound on broad trail with nothing much to see. You can see other lakes at least as neat with less of a trudge. If you're a scrambler, Rockbound Lake is awesome on the way to summitting Castle Mountain, Stuart Knob, or Helena Ridge. But I wouldn't consider it worth a trip on its own.
Or if you want a good full-day trip, Bourgeau Lake is in a nearly-as-neat setting, with the same length of trudge to reach, but go 2km further and you'll see a collection of attractive alpine tarns, plus an incredible lookout from Harvey Pass unlike anything inthe Rockbound area. |
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2012 : 06:49 AM
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Sulphur Skyline? You can do that one on your own. It's easy and there are always dozens of people around. 20-23 August is mid-week, though, so a lot of people have to work.
You shouldn't have a problem at Lake Louise, itself. There are so many people around that any bear with brains is long gone. The trails from Paradise Valley/Moraine Lake are a different matter.
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Edited by - peter1955 on 03/19/2012 07:47 AM |
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London
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 2:51 PM
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Hi Rachel. Thanks for the helpful reply. I'll aim to post again nearer August, but have messaged about hiking partners on several websites so don't check them all too regularly, so feel free to email me. Sentinel Pass/Annette Lake sounds good idea, but need 2 cars and probably 4 people as sounds like they impose that minimum number because of bears. (was also told going down into Paradise Valley is pretty steep?). As for Rockbound, having looked at pics I can see what you mean. I was tempted by a picture from up high looking down on Rockbound which seems in a spectacular setting surrounded by rocky plateaus and cliffs, but the view at the lakeside itself isn't so good as you can't see beyond the lip of the immediate bowl, so it's more the view from higher looking down than the lake itself that seems awesome. Perhaps the pic I saw was taken on one of those other hikes you mentioned - how long do they take, I'll try and research it but would be on to do one of them if they are day hikes. Keep in touch if you fancy hiking during that first August fortnight (as Banff/Lake Louise/Rockbound are all pretty close, I could do any of those hikes during the 2 weeks I'm in those 2 towns). Regards, Ross
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1078 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 4:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kaniukr
As for Rockbound, having looked at pics I can see what you mean. I was tempted by a picture from up high looking down on Rockbound which seems in a spectacular setting surrounded by rocky plateaus and cliffs, but the view at the lakeside itself isn't so good as you can't see beyond the lip of the immediate bowl, so it's more the view from higher looking down than the lake itself that seems awesome. Perhaps the pic I saw was taken on one of those other hikes you mentioned - how long do they take, I'll try and research it but would be on to do one of them if they are day hikes. Keep in touch if you fancy hiking during that first August fortnight (as Banff/Lake Louise/Rockbound are all pretty close, I could do any of those hikes during the 2 weeks I'm in those 2 towns). Regards, Ross
Ascending Castle Mountain is a day hike, but a long one. I don't have my guide with me, but you should probably count on 10+ hours for round trip time (though a lot of that is just the long approach). It does probably entail another.....2000? feet in elevation gain from the lake. Which is sort of what elevates this to a scramble, even though it is essentially just a hike. If you're worried about Sentinal pass/Larch Valley being steep, then you might want to give this scramble some thought.
I think there are much better views, from much shorter (in time) scrambles, but, like almost any scramble in the Rockies up a substantial peak, it will give you something great to see! |
Edited by - DCIPHER on 03/27/2012 4:44 PM |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2012 : 12:24 AM
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A long hike is a long hike no matter how much elevation is gained. Castle Mountain is a scramble due to the need for routefinding. It's just hiking if you take the correct route, but you do need to do some picking your way through the cliffbands, and it's easy to end up on not-so-hikeable terrain if you screw up the routefinding.
But it is a hell of a long hike. I would recommend it to a scrambler, but one definitely shouldn't underestimate it. |
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1078 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2012 : 12:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
A long hike is a long hike no matter how much elevation is gained. Castle Mountain is a scramble due to the need for routefinding. It's just hiking if you take the correct route, but you do need to do some picking your way through the cliffbands, and it's easy to end up on not-so-hikeable terrain if you screw up the routefinding.
But it is a hell of a long hike. I would recommend it to a scrambler, but one definitely shouldn't underestimate it.
Do you think? Many scrambles in the Rockies require no routefinding, especially these days, with beaten in trails....almost none of the popular easy/moderate scrambles require real routefinding now. I think elevation gained, and summit reached, are more defining of a scramble.
By that same token, hikes can often require routefinding.
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Edited by - DCIPHER on 03/28/2012 12:39 AM |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2012 : 12:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kaniukr
Sentinel Pass/Annette Lake sounds good idea, but need 2 cars and probably 4 people as sounds like they impose that minimum number because of bears. (was also told going down into Paradise Valley is pretty steep?).
If you want to see Larch Valley and Lake Annette anyways, you'll need the 4 people, so just as well to see them together. The horseshoe trail starts at Moraine Lake and ends along the road to Moraine Lake, so unless you are finishing super late, you'd generally have no problem hitching back up to your car. Everyone on the road is going where you need to go, and people seem to be pretty friendly about lifts there. There's a decent chance you'd talk to someone on the way who might be willing.
quote:
Originally posted by kaniukr
Perhaps the pic I saw was taken on one of those other hikes you mentioned - how long do they take, I'll try and research it but would be on to do one of them if they are day hikes.
The three trips I mentioned are all scrambles that go above and beyond Rockbound Lake. If you haven't done any scrambling, it's not a great first shot, so I'd skip it and do something else. Or if you like the look enough, go ahead and give it a shot, and see if you can comfortably go a bit above the lake, Just be careful to stay within your comfort zone.
Bourgeau Lake/Harvey Pass is a full-day hike not far from Banff townsite. It's ~10km and 1000m gain to the pass, but it's all trail hiking.
I'll keep the plans in mind when we get closer and I have an idea as to what my August entails. |
Edited by - Rachelo on 03/28/2012 12:40 AM |
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| Engor
Intermediate Member
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Calgary
838 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2012 : 12:48 AM
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I second Rachelo on Rockbound Lake and Lake Annette. Also, if you find the descent from Sentinel Pass into Paradise Valley too steep, you might have the same opinion about Fairview Mountain. Most hikers don't have problems there but the ascent/descent from/to Saddleback Pass is really steep.
Cory and Edith Passes loop is a nice hike but there are far better options in mid-August. Citadel Pass, Healy Pass or Helen Lake and beyond are great destinations if you want to see alpine meadows. The Iceline in Yoho is a great walk through glacier carved tundra. Wilcox Pass is a great short hike to see a glacier.
Regarding Jasper, Bald Hills or Opal Hills are more scenic hikes than Sulphur Skyline. That eastern corner of Jasper gets little precipitation and looks very desolate in the late summer. Bald and Opal Hills are much more vibrant and offer a great view of Maligne Lake.
Berg Lake backpack definitely deserves 3 days at least, if you can make it to the lake in one day. Snowbird Pass and Mumm Basin are fantastic side-trips from the lake:
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2012 : 12:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by DCIPHER
quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
A long hike is a long hike no matter how much elevation is gained. Castle Mountain is a scramble due to the need for routefinding...
Do you think? Many scrambles in the Rockies require no routefinding, especially these days, with beaten in trails....almost none of the popular easy/moderate scrambles require real routefinding now. I think elevation gained, and summit reached, are more defining of a scramble.
By that same token, hikes can often require routefinding.
Scrambles become scrambles and not long day hikes when they have parts that require hands-on for balance or progress, and/or necessary exposure, and/or routefinding where a failure puts you into climbing terrain.
I think the definition of scrambling has become confused because many things that were only ever considered scrambles due to the lack of a path now have clear hiker-packed trails, and have become hikes. This leads to people doing Yamnuska, Ha Ling, Bourgeau, and Fairview, considering themselves a practiced scrambler, and getting into big trouble on a real scramble that hasn't been downgraded by use. I think it would be beneficial to stop defining long, steep, unofficially-trailed hikes with no hands-on, no exposure, and no longer any need for routefinding as 'scrambles'.
I don't think that routefinding is a necessary condition for a scramble, but I believe it is a contributing factor. If it has a clear trail the whole way but a hands-on step (Heart), it is a scramble despite the lack of routefinding or exposure, but if it requires finding the best line through cliffbands without a clear trail, it can be a scramble even if the best line allows one to skip any hands-on.
I don't think elevation gain has anything to do with the definition other than often coming with the territory.
I think there is a difference between off-trail hiking that requires routefinding (or you'll get lost) and off-trail scrambling that requires routefinding (or you'll find yourself in technical climbing terrain), but I haven't explained it enough to be sure about the difference and weed out the problems with the definition attempt.
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
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1078 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2012 : 11:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
quote:
Originally posted by DCIPHER
quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
A long hike is a long hike no matter how much elevation is gained. Castle Mountain is a scramble due to the need for routefinding...
Do you think? Many scrambles in the Rockies require no routefinding, especially these days, with beaten in trails....almost none of the popular easy/moderate scrambles require real routefinding now. I think elevation gained, and summit reached, are more defining of a scramble.
By that same token, hikes can often require routefinding.
Scrambles become scrambles and not long day hikes when they have parts that require hands-on for balance or progress,
and/or necessary exposure, and/or routefinding where a failure puts you into climbing terrain.
I think the definition of scrambling has become confused because many things that were only ever considered scrambles due to the lack of a path now have clear hiker-packed trails, and have become hikes. This leads to people doing Yamnuska, Ha Ling, Bourgeau, and Fairview, considering themselves a practiced scrambler, and getting into big trouble on a real scramble that hasn't been downgraded by use. I think it would be beneficial to stop defining long, steep, unofficially-trailed hikes with no hands-on, no exposure, and no longer any need for routefinding as 'scrambles'.
I don't think that routefinding is a necessary condition for a scramble, but I believe it is a contributing factor. If it has a clear trail the whole way but a hands-on step (Heart), it is a scramble despite the lack of routefinding or exposure, but if it requires finding the best line through cliffbands without a clear trail, it can be a scramble even if the best line allows one to skip any hands-on.
I don't think elevation gain has anything to do with the definition other than often coming with the territory.
I think there is a difference between off-trail hiking that requires routefinding (or you'll get lost) and off-trail scrambling that requires routefinding (or you'll find yourself in technical climbing terrain), but I haven't explained it enough to be sure about the difference and weed out the problems with the definition attempt.
I DON'T KNOW RACHELO....SOUNDS...MADE UP! lol.
In all seriousness, I've heard so many definitions of scrambling, many of which have big subjective components, that I agree the whole thing is rather convoluted. Usually when I explain scrambling to people, I say "any non-technical way up a mountain, at the easiest level it's just a steep hike...at the hardest level it's borderline free-climbing". So I include those "hike" scrambles, probably largely because the great Kane includes them. Even of the ones that have some hands-on sections, often times, the section amounts to about 10 seconds to 2 min. out of 4 hours.....so to me, what stands out about the scrambles tend to be the fact that a summit is attained, and usually quite a lot of height gain is involved.
I think your definition and standards have merit, and might well be better suited to differentiating the two, but, it surpises me to hear you declare it so definitively! LOL
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London
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 05:37 AM
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Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply and the suggestions.
Rachel, when you say this "If you're a scrambler, Rockbound Lake is awesome on the way to summitting Castle Mountain, Stuart Knob, or Helena Ridge. But I wouldn't consider it worth a trip on its own." - did you mean Rockbound becomes awesome really because of the distant panoramic high views from those summits rather than Rockbound itself, although you pass by it, or did you mean because of the views down to Rockbound itself as you ascend above it?
Thanks for the links - the pictures of Fairview and Sentinel Pass look amazing.
As for scrambling, I've done a fair bit and some steepish, although I don't know which definition or category necessarily it would fit in. I pretty much have a go at anything, my main ruling factors being likelihood of slipping and falling and long drop if I do (don't mind an occasional tumble, but if it's only when these 2 factors combine that I have a good think about it!!!). Sounds like quite a few people come down Sentinel to Paradise Valley, it was just one website that said don't listen to people who say this is a way down. I'll have a vehicle - just hope I can muster 3 others to go
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London
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 05:43 AM
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| What you both say about Rockbound perhaps also applies to Floe Lake (if it's a there and back and not part of the Iceline) do you think? It seems a lovely lake but not too exciting walk up. But then again that's often the case with hikes, no pain, no gain. |
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High River, (just south of Calgary eh!), Alberta
Canada
1697 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 08:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kaniukr
What you both say about Rockbound perhaps also applies to Floe Lake (if it's a there and back and not part of the Iceline) do you think? It seems a lovely lake but not too exciting walk up. But then again that's often the case with hikes, no pain, no gain.
Floe lake is part of the Rockwall backpack route (not Iceline), just to clarify. Personally, I would recommend Floe as an overnight, not so much a day hike. Has a tremendous backcountry campsite right at the lake and if you have a calm morning the reflections are stunning.
http://claytonditzler.zenfolio.com/p344919374/h2da6630e#h3dd26e6c
As you mentioned Iceline, that would make a better day trip. (pretty good backpack too) |
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Calgary, Alberta
Canada
1185 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 08:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kaniukr
Rachel, when you say this "If you're a scrambler, Rockbound Lake is awesome on the way to summitting Castle Mountain, Stuart Knob, or Helena Ridge. But I wouldn't consider it worth a trip on its own." - did you mean Rockbound becomes awesome really because of the distant panoramic high views from those summits rather than Rockbound itself, although you pass by it, or did you mean because of the views down to Rockbound itself as you ascend above it?
Rockbound Lake is a really nice lake, but it's a long way in for just the lake. There are many more beautiful lakes that can be reached with much less effort and along more scenic trails.
HOWEVER, above Rockbound Lake there is a beautiful plateau. Depending on time of year, this plateau can be quite lush and flowing with melt water. Ponds can create some beautiful reflections. From this plateau you can reach a number of mountain summits with relative ease, such as Castle, Stuart Knob or Helena Ridge. To me, just spending a day on the plateau would be a worth while trip, especially if you're a photographer. It's from this view that you really understand the reason the lake got it's name.
Here are some shots from above Rockbound Lake:
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Calgary, Alberta
Canada
1185 Posts |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 11:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by DCIPHER
In all seriousness, I've heard so many definitions of scrambling, many of which have big subjective components, that I agree the whole thing is rather convoluted. Usually when I explain scrambling to people, I say "any non-technical way up a mountain, at the easiest level it's just a steep hike...at the hardest level it's borderline free-climbing". So I include those "hike" scrambles, probably largely because the great Kane includes them. Even of the ones that have some hands-on sections, often times, the section amounts to about 10 seconds to 2 min. out of 4 hours.....so to me, what stands out about the scrambles tend to be the fact that a summit is attained, and usually quite a lot of height gain is involved.
I think your definition and standards have merit, and might well be better suited to differentiating the two, but, it surpises me to hear you declare it so definitively! LOL
Honestly, it just detracts from the making of a point to put "i think" and "in my opinion" and "based on what i have read" all over the place. I do believe that is the fact, and I go ahead and state it as thus.
I would note that when "the great Kane" included peaks like Yamnuska, Ha Ling, and the like, they *were* scrambles. Consider when the first edition was published! And even the second. Those hikes became trailed non-scrambles because of his book bringing knowledge to the people. Back when he wrote them in, you did still need to play around to find the route, and trips like Heart didn't have trail markers screwed in. So they were scrambles, but aren't really now that they have developed clear trails.
I don't think the summit definition is sufficient, as no-one mistakes Mount Allan for a scramble, since it is clearly a summit with a massive amount of elevation gain, but an official trail. Mount Burke is also a hike, as is Junction Mountain. Popular acceptance does suggest that steep and summit is contributory but insufficient.
I agree with the question as to rating according to a single move or two. I imagine that is carried over from climbing, in which a route is rated based on it's most difficult move. I prefer to hear scrambles rated "steep hike with one moderate scramble move", or "steep hike with a difficult scramble knife-edge ridge to finish", or "easy scrambling with a 10m moderate downclimb" or even "steep hike with good routefinding, moderate to difficult exposed scrambling with poor routefinding".
But then, that information is generally included if people take the time to look past the single rating. |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 11:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kaniukr
Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply and the suggestions.
Rachel, when you say this "If you're a scrambler, Rockbound Lake is awesome on the way to summitting Castle Mountain, Stuart Knob, or Helena Ridge. But I wouldn't consider it worth a trip on its own." - did you mean Rockbound becomes awesome really because of the distant panoramic high views from those summits rather than Rockbound itself, although you pass by it, or did you mean because of the views down to Rockbound itself as you ascend above it?
Thanks for the links - the pictures of Fairview and Sentinel Pass look amazing.
As for scrambling, I've done a fair bit and some steepish, although I don't know which definition or category necessarily it would fit in. I pretty much have a go at anything, my main ruling factors being likelihood of slipping and falling and long drop if I do (don't mind an occasional tumble, but if it's only when these 2 factors combine that I have a good think about it!!!). Sounds like quite a few people come down Sentinel to Paradise Valley, it was just one website that said don't listen to people who say this is a way down. I'll have a vehicle - just hope I can muster 3 others to go
I mean that it's a nice place to see if you were dropped in on it, but not nice enough all by itself to warrant the work taken to it. It's an enjoyable part of a hike, but not really worth it alone.
The one website was probably written by a trail-only hiker who's afraid of anything not groomed. There's really no concern on the back side of Sentinel Pass. And if you want to see Annette Lake, this is the way to do it. It too is nowhere near special enough to be worth its own trip.
There are a good number of long hikes/easy scrambles with no exposure (ie. minimal hazard to a slip&fall). Just look for info on the exposure of something.
I agree with the others on Floe Lake. The Rockwall is a really awesome trip, and Floe Lake is a great part of that. It's even worth an overnight by itself for the evening and morning light on the lake. But I would never do it as a day hike. Even doing it only one way, on the way down the last day of the Rockwall, I found the fireweed and burned forest pretty for the first 2km, then boring the rest of the slog down. I can't imagine slogging up that just to pause at the lake and return. but everyone's different.
I do think the way to Floe Lake is more attractive than the way to Rockbound Lake. Rockbound Lake is really boring plain forest. Floe's is at least nice, even if it doesn't change the whole way. |
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1078 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 11:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Marko
Also, I wasn't overly impressed with the Corey and Edith pass hike. I would recommend skipping this one and maybe spending more time on the Icefields Parkway. The Helen Lake/Cirque Peak hike/scramble is fantastic for scenery and pretty straight forward.
http://markostavric.fotki.com/2007/20070706/
http://markostavric.fotki.com/2008/20080706/
Tend to agree with Corey/Edith....although...the first view of Lewis in full has to take your breath away if you have a pulse.
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 11:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kaniukr
It seems a lovely lake but not too exciting walk up. But then again that's often the case with hikes, no pain, no gain.
Helen Lake is an exception to this. the 8km to the lake are full of flowers, and with regular glimpses through the trees out to Bow Peak and Crowfoot Glacier. Then the lake is in a spectacular meadow after a nice waterfall, and if you still have energy, it just gets better if you hike up to the plateau above the lake for more view. If you still have energy, every step up towards Cirque Peak brings more awesome view, but if you run out and have to turn around at any point, you've still already had an awesome day.
Sure, I sometimes to hikes that are drudging just for the end result, but the best hikes have a nice trail and an awesome ending. And when you're only visiting for a short period, you can probably be choosy enough to find them.
Larch Valley --> Sentinel Pass --> Paradise Valley/Giant's Steps/Lake Annette is another example of a long hike with lots of neat stuff along the way and not just a trudge to a destination. |
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Hiking partners August:Banff/Lake Louise/Jasper
