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 Snowmobile Avalanche Death Callaghan
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Coastal
Junior Member


Vancouver
Canada

327 Posts

 Posted - 03/30/2012 :  1:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tzoflier

Dave, IMHO, it's intellectually dishonest to promote the agenda of snowmobiling, and demanding exclusive tracts of crown land for their use, without disclosing that you have a clear personal profit motivation in the debate.

It's also a simple matter of personal honour and integrity to reveal a personal financial motivation may be behind your comments when you're promoting snowmobiling.



I have no dog in this fight, but that's a bit rich coming from someone posting anonymously.
ClubTread Supporter

Spunky
Advanced Member

bandana wearin', pole huckin', view lovin', dog herdin', 4x4 navigatin', lake huntin', butt-slidin' bridge crosser, who enjoys postholing with an overnighter pack

Mission, BC
Canada

4832 Posts

 Posted - 03/30/2012 :  1:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's Dave's fault the guy died - I get it!

Seriously tzoflier. Like, WOW, is all I have to say about your last comment

pmicheals
Advanced Member


Richmond, BC
Canada

2654 Posts

 Posted - 03/30/2012 :  3:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tzoflier

Who knew Norona was a paid snowmobile industry promoter?

Great snowmobile Ski-doo sales person, and adventure lifestyle promoter
"those deer will be frozen in their footsteps [by Ski-doo's high powered headlights], ready for the shot, Dan"
Is it easier to chase and shoot a malnourished deer, in the middle of winter, in chest deep snow with a powerful Ski-doo mountain sled? Is that considered sporting by hunting standards? FYI, Dave, it's a criminal offense to "shine" your prey in order to shoot them and carries a maximum $2000 fine, and six months in jail. Does Ski-doo know that you're openly promoting the use of their newest, most high-tech mountain sled to commit a criminal offense in illegal hunting?

"Shining deer, elk, or bear while hunting or possessing weapons prohibited.
29.314(3)(a)(a) Prohibition. No person may use or possess with intent to use a light for shining deer, elk, or bear while the person is hunting deer, elk, or bear or in possession of a firearm, bow and arrow, or crossbow."

In the interest of full-disclosure, it would be helpful to mention you're in the pay of the industry to promote their products when you're championing their use, and demanding recreation space for them in our environment.



You know I tried replying to this, but it's not worth it. Step Away and give your head a shake.
ClubTread Supporter

LeeL
Advanced Member

Extreme ski tourin, mountain bikin addict who hikes at least once a year


2641 Posts

 Posted - 03/30/2012 :  3:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
troll zoflier's posts are responsible for making everyone who listens to his bleatings stupider/

FrankB
Junior Member



322 Posts

 Posted - 03/30/2012 :  8:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think some of you are a bit harsh about zoflier's posts. He brings up some very good points that are worth thinking about. With regard to the rest- well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

alexcanuck
Intermediate Member



922 Posts

 Posted - 03/30/2012 :  9:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, he did say "Those deer will be frozen in the headlights, ready for the shot" etc.
That certainly does sound like encouraging and promoting a certain mindset/lifestyle that includes illegal not to mention highly unsporting activities. The whole tone of that video does seem to be more about the high-marking heavy-drinking party attitude than the quiet sober responsible back-country enthusiast using a (quiet clean 4 stroke) snowmobile to access some routes. I mean, how many times do you have to say "awesome" per minute before it starts to sound ridiculous?
I've had a wonderful camp ruined by target shooting, drunken hollering and ATVs doing donuts all too often, and like it or not that is the target market of those promotional videos.

Flame on, Yahoos!
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LeeL
Advanced Member

Extreme ski tourin, mountain bikin addict who hikes at least once a year


2641 Posts

 Posted - 03/30/2012 :  10:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Frank. Tzoflier isn't a real person. It's a bot. A computer program that crawls the web to cut and paste various vignettes together in support of some position. Any position. It's layered with an algorithm to simulate mental retardation.

To be fair half of CT are bots too

johngenx
Advanced Member


Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3743 Posts

 Posted - 03/31/2012 :  06:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't get it. Kev might have been a bit inflammatory, but he had lots of positive info to contribute, and yet he's banned. Trolls that just fill and kill threads with tons of garbage and start useless threads are not turfed.

alexcanuck
Intermediate Member



922 Posts

 Posted - 03/31/2012 :  07:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by johngenx

I don't get it.



Kevin I have never met, so I withhold judgement. T2C (his CT persona) was a rude arrogant jerk who would egregiously insult anyone with an opinion T2C didn't agree with, pile on in mass bullying attacks, even grossly insult well-meaning newbies who innocently asked a perfectly valid question.

Tzoflier espouses an opinion that may not be popular among a certain profile of society but he articulates it well, remains civil, doesn't respond rudely to the ensuing vicious ad hominem attacks, and has gained my respect for it.
Without even considering the opinions involved, he is a lot closer to my personal ideals than either the character Norona is paid to portray in the sled promotional videos linked above or the people who instantly resort to personal attacks.



Do you get it now, or am I going to get piled on and shit-kicked by a gang of people who don't want me to have a voice?
Frankly, I prefer civilized discourse to an angry mob mentality.

sandy
Advanced Member

Kootenay Bud


2804 Posts

 Posted - 03/31/2012 :  08:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by johngenx

I don't get it. Kev might have been a bit inflammatory, but he had lots of positive info to contribute, and yet he's banned. Trolls that just fill and kill threads with tons of garbage and start useless threads are not turfed.



The tribe has spoken. "Kev"'s torch went out.

sgRant
Advanced Member


Vancouver
2552 Posts

 Posted - 03/31/2012 :  2:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by johngenx

I don't get it. Kev might have been a bit inflammatory, but he had lots of positive info to contribute, and yet he's banned. Trolls that just fill and kill threads with tons of garbage and start useless threads are not turfed.



"a bit inflammatory"? Did you ever see the list of dozens of nasty insults I quoted from T2C? Yes, he had posts of value, and some trip reports, but that doesn't give anyone the right to habitually violated the forum guidelines. And then he sneaked back on using a new id and immediately resumed his neurotic attacks. I hope some day he gets the sort of help he seems to need.

tzoflier, on the other hand, makes valid points and willingly engages in debate with those who disagree. I didn't see Dave responding to the "shining" matter.

DCIPHER
Senior Member



1080 Posts

 Posted - 04/01/2012 :  4:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by alexcanuck

quote:
Originally posted by johngenx

I don't get it.



Kevin I have never met, so I withhold judgement. T2C (his CT persona) was a rude arrogant jerk who would egregiously insult anyone with an opinion T2C didn't agree with, pile on in mass bullying attacks, even grossly insult well-meaning newbies who innocently asked a perfectly valid question.

Tzoflier espouses an opinion that may not be popular among a certain profile of society but he articulates it well, remains civil, doesn't respond rudely to the ensuing vicious ad hominem attacks, and has gained my respect for it.
Without even considering the opinions involved, he is a lot closer to my personal ideals than either the character Norona is paid to portray in the sled promotional videos linked above or the people who instantly resort to personal attacks.



Do you get it now, or am I going to get piled on and shit-kicked by a gang of people who don't want me to have a voice?
Frankly, I prefer civilized discourse to an angry mob mentality.



Odd timing...I was just thinking about Kevin, whom I also have never met. He was aggressive in his statements, to say the least. He stated things bluntly, and often in an inflammatory manner, HOWEVER, and this was key to me, I learned early on, from personal experience, that if you back up your statements, with solid, logical, arguments, Kevin would absolutely, acknowledge, retract, or even apologize. He did listen to replies, and give them due consideration. That alone, put him far, far beyond most internet posters, who run on emotion, and irrational arguing. Cocky tone aside, my sense is that he rarely let his personal feelings prevent him from bowing to sound arguments.

The reason that I was thinking about him this afternoon is that his posts, hypercritical as they sometimes were, functioned as a BS detector for the board. Yes, he sometimes slighted posters unfairly, both Alexcanuck and Sgrant were right about that, (though again, if they backed their arguments soundly, he often revised his analysis) but he also debunked countless inane statements. In that sense, he functioned as a rather grating fire alarm. You may not like the annoying alarm noise....and it may go off falsely at times....but without it functioning, things grow worse. The trolls, act-out types, and emotionally-driven people feel increasingly free to unload. My opinion, is that the quality of reasoning has dropped slightly on the board, and I think this is a trend that will continue.


As to Tzoflier, I agree with you Alex, his conduct in this thread has been admirable....which absolutely cannot be said for many of the replies to him. It is odd that some would accuse Kevin of "gang" attacks...I don't think anything could be further from the truth...I don't think Kevin had many personal "allies", due to his aggressive style. When people were accused of ganging up with Kevin (which I was on a couple of occasions), all the people on his "side" were contributing arguments of their own, which coincided with Kevin's (it still makes me laugh that JohnGenX, Cambium, T2C, and myself were accused of being a "gang". LOL! Talk about odd grouping. Note: see you guys at the June meeting on top of Aylmer...don't forget the sacrifices) Perhaps that was perceived by some as a group "attack" due to Kevin's style, but note how in this thread, some of those very same critics are jumping on Tzoflier...not with arguments of their own, but insult posts, devoid of content: disgusting.

Tzoflier, your points are valid. Childish accusation that you don't "get out", that you aren't a "sledder", and the rest of the laundry list of argumental fallacies being used to reply to your points should not dissuade you. Well done for taking the higher road.


Edited by - DCIPHER on 04/01/2012 5:10 PM

johngenx
Advanced Member


Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3743 Posts

 Posted - 04/01/2012 :  5:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
DCIPHER - Well put.
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