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521 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2012 : 07:46 AM
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I received a response back from PNU power about their compressed air battery storage system. They replied back
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We receive a lot of inquiries for storage and we would be very rich by now if our products were suitable.
If they employed heat recovery from the compression process, perhaps the efficiency could be improved quite drastically. The other downside is that the equipment cost is relatively high, seeing that it is relatively new technology, and numerous cylinders would be needed for a suitable amount of storage (50 to 100). A larger tank(s) for storage would make more sense, and be more cost effective. Scale of manufacturing would eventually bring the equipment cost down. |
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Vancouver
1808 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2012 : 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by path finder
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While working for Hydro when Power Smart started up, I asked Power Smart about the fact that the "waste" heat from incandescent light bulbs helps heat our houses during most of the year. They didn't seem to know what I was talking about. After explaining it, they claimed there was no value in the residual heat because light bulbs are located all over the house. After I countered that radiators and hot air vents are also all over the house, they said they'd have an engineer get back to me. Never heard anything again. How I wish I had kept those emails.
It took forever for Power Smart to address this topic, and I feel they're still not coming close to discussing the subject fairly. The trouble is, that if they calculated the net benefits of their efforts, it would be drastically less impressive then their claims. And despite Power Smart's efforts, energy consumption just keeps climbing.
The way I understand it, Power Smart's efforts are in place to reduce load on the electrical grid and electrical generating capacity in BC. So to state that light bulbs contribute to heat in the home is true for much of the year, reducing usage with lighting helps take pressure off the electrical grid. Most of the growth in demand is due to increased business and residential expansion in the province. So any reduced usage will support Hydro's goal with Power Smart which in turn will help delay the need for major electrical infrastructure.
In my case, the cost of electricity is so high, that it makes sense to reduce usage or switch to more efficient appliances, bulbs, etc... Imagine if you were paying over triple what you are now. Would you change your consumption habits?
To answer your last question first, I would compare my cost per btu for gas and electricity. If gas was a lot cheaper, I'd reduce electrical consumption. If they were equal, which my calculations showed they were a few years ago, there'd be little reason to bias toward one or the other. We have some choice, such as having both electric and gas hot water heaters in our house. We normally use only the gas one. As an experiment, we used only the electric one for a year. Doing this had no significant effect on our utility bills or the total number of btu's we consumed that year.
Power Smart's efforts may well be slowing the growth in demand for electricity. But it's not a huge amount, its success is exaggerated, and the NET ENERGY savings are probably so minor as to fairly be called trivial. If they really wanted to be effective, Power Smart would have to criticize rampant consumption of material goods, continually rising expectations for larger houses, more travel, and all the other excesses people currently pursue in what they've been told equates higher quality of life. They'd also have to address energy consumption, not electrical consumption. |
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Vancouver
1808 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2012 : 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by seawallrunner
I'm just a private citizen, and am not a BC Hydro employee.
I was inspired to reduce my electricity usage after reading about Earth Hour, an annual event organized by the WWF. In this event, citizens and businesses around the world are challenged to turn off the lights for one hour at 8pm, one Saturday evening in March.
I had gone out the weekend before to Stanley Park, to take a skyline picture of Vancouver from a favourite point of view. On Earth Hour, few lights went out during said hour. Some major businesses made a good effort of course, but most residential lights had obstinately stayed on for the full hour.
I walked home puzzled. How hard would it be to reduce my own consumption? What could I do, for the rest of the year? And so I made a little promise to myself that I would try this out, and see where it takes me. So I signed up for Team Power Smart with BC Hydro and promised myself that I would check in every month when my bill came in by email.
I am fortunate to live in the mildest area of Greater Vancouver, near the water, where the winters are mild, and so are the summers. But the difference was dramatic. And so continuing with the good habits was easy, and brought me to this day.
I must admit that I love my computer, my iPhone, my appliances and my hot water showers. But I achieved the 50% energy reduction simply by not using what I do not need - my home is not all lit up at the moment, the radio is not blaring and I don't have the TV going while I am typing all this.
That's all it took, really. Mindfulness, as well as some nice NZ sheep skin slippers, and a cozy sweater and hot tea to warm me on this January evening.
You're correct in reminding me that your role with Power Smart is not one that would influence their policies.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you live in an apartment building. You indicated you are billed separately for electricity. Are you billed separately for gas (if you use it)? Is your space heating gas or electric?
Your electric bill presumably is very specific to your own use, as opposed to a share of the building. However, your space heating bill would be affected by the adjacent units. You could shut off your own heat and only be affected to the extent of your suite's outside walls. If this is the scenario, then this would be a clever way of shifting utility cost to neighbors, since their space heating costs will increase to try and make up for the colder walls/floors they share with your unit. |
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521 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2012 : 7:54 PM
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quote:
Power Smart's efforts may well be slowing the growth in demand for electricity. But it's not a huge amount, its success is exaggerated, and the NET ENERGY savings are probably so minor as to fairly be called trivial. If they really wanted to be effective, Power Smart would have to criticize rampant consumption of material goods, continually rising expectations for larger houses, more travel, and all the other excesses people currently pursue in what they've been told equates higher quality of life. They'd also have to address energy consumption, not electrical consumption.
Part of the reason for others not to participate with Power Smart and reduce consumption is the fact that the cost of electric power in BC is so darn inexpensive, compared to other parts of the country or world. If rates were to suddenly climb dramatically (ie 3or 4 times what you pay now), I'm sure that would have a big impact on consumption.
But on the other side of the coin, BC is very fortunate to have a relatively clean source of electric power, the majority of which comes from hydro or micro hydro.. In that case, it makes little sense to transition from electric power to a fossil fuel based one such as natural gas, oil, coal, etc...
The reverse is true where I live. Electric power is very expensive and relatively dirty, coming from fossil fuels. The alternative is to transition to natural gas, which is more efficient when used directly and is also relatively inexpensive, compared to prices elsewhere.
Ultimately, we should be striving to reduce consumption of energy as you mention, and to transition to renewable sources of energy. Reducing consumption does not fit in with the current largely materialistic based free enterprise business system which has high emphasis on growth. Perhaps if there was more focus into transitioning to renewable energy sources, that would create employment which otherwise would go into producing materialistic products, some of which is unnecessary. |
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 double-double seeking, snow-chasing, short-cutting, vertical feet collector
4523 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2012 : 10:14 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you live in an apartment building. You indicated you are billed separately for electricity. Are you billed separately for gas (if you use it)? Is your space heating gas or electric?
Your electric bill presumably is very specific to your own use, as opposed to a share of the building. However, your space heating bill would be affected by the adjacent units. You could shut off your own heat and only be affected to the extent of your suite's outside walls. If this is the scenario, then this would be a clever way of shifting utility cost to neighbors, since their space heating costs will increase to try and make up for the colder walls/floors they share with your unit.
No gas, just electricity and baseboard heating. I live in a well-insulated concrete building which remains comfortably cool in the winter as well as in the summer (no need for a fan during Vancouver's version of heat waves). With nearly twenty 4'x 4' windows in my home, there is definitely potential for heat loss in the winter time, but as I mentioned earlier, it's not like we have Montreal-grade winters here.
I don't think I am riding the coat tails of my neighbors (you are a suspicious person aren't you  ). There is concrete, space and insulation between the units, so I can't imagine I am using anyone's heat. I can't even hear the sound of their stereos when I am inside my home. If I had a warm home, then the sweater and slippers would go largely unused.
I prefer living in a cool home - I never understood those that hang out sweltering in shorts and tshirts in their homes in the winter, only to wear slippers, long sleeves and sweaters inside during the summer time. This way suits me, and keeps me healthier too. I can't remember last time I had a cold or flu. |
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Vancouver
1808 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2012 : 7:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by seawallrunner
No gas, just electricity and baseboard heating. I live in a well-insulated concrete building which remains comfortably cool in the winter as well as in the summer (no need for a fan during Vancouver's version of heat waves). With nearly twenty 4'x 4' windows in my home, there is definitely potential for heat loss in the winter time, but as I mentioned earlier, it's not like we have Montreal-grade winters here.
I don't think I am riding the coat tails of my neighbors (you are a suspicious person aren't you ). There is concrete, space and insulation between the units, so I can't imagine I am using anyone's heat.
Not suspicious, just like to know what's really going on...
Are those windows triple-glazed?
I'm going to go through what I think is going on. Since it differs from your understanding that the suites are completely thermally isolated, at some point my description will diverge from yours. You could point out at what point your thinking diverges.
This scenario describes the situation in the winter.
You say the walls in your building, between suites, are like a sandwich with a concrete core and faced with insulation. The concrete walls/floors between suites must be at some temperature. Perhaps they are at outside temperature, perhaps at the same temperature as the adjacent suites, or perhaps somewhere in between.
Intuition tells me the temperature of the concrete between suites will be roughly the same as the air temperature in those suites.
Since the concrete doesn't have its own heating system, the heat can come from only one source. That source is the electric heaters, appliances and people in the adjacent suites. There would be some solar heat provided by those big windows, but if it was enough to heat all that concrete your building wouldn't need baseboard heaters.
If the heating systems in the suites are heating the shared concrete, it stands to reason that if a suite reduces its contribution, there is an inevitable result. The concrete walls/floors adjacent to the cool suite will also be cooler. Since the suites that share walls/floors now have cooler walls, they have to produce more heat to maintain their chosen temperature. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1461 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2012 : 9:19 PM
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I work for a company that is trying to develop an efficient heat engine for generating electricity on a small scale. One of the possible applications is known as micro-CHP (combined heat and power). Such systems are gaining ground in Japan and Europe. The idea is to generate electricity from gas using an efficient engine then use the waste heat from the process to heat your water or home. Other markets we are exploring are generating electricity in transfer trucks without idling, from biogas, and from waste heat sources. It's a really interesting project.
As for the incandescent bulb home heating, I think that it would be really inefficient unless you specifically set up your lamps in convection currents. At any rate the difference would be rather insignificant unless you are using a lot of high power bulbs. The exception would be in really small rooms.
path finder, have you considered a grid tie-in system instead of storing the energy in batteries? Have you looked at absorbed glass mat batteries? My father just bought a bunch for his boat. Fast charging, deep discharge, long life, can be frozen, low maintenance, expensive... |
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521 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2012 : 10:07 PM
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path finder, have you considered a grid tie-in system instead of storing the energy in batteries? Have you looked at absorbed glass mat batteries? My father just bought a bunch for his boat. Fast charging, deep discharge, long life, can be frozen, low maintenance, expensive...
My plans are to eventually go off grid actually. In this area, we are paying more for electrical distribution than the electrical energy itself! And it would be a good time to go off grid with the purchase of an unserviced property.
I'm currently using an AGM battery with my small solar setup. But when I expand again, I will consider instead large deep cycle batteries such as a Surrette S-600, which has an average lifespan of 12 years and very good cost/kwh. AGM's have an average life span of 4 to 7 years and are about double the price.
http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm
They do have some other advantages, but they wouldn't make a difference for my installation.
As I mentioned previously, things are looking promising for lithium metal battery technology. They have a very high energy density, can withstand deeper discharges without damage, and are extremely efficient. Currently, there cost makes them prohibitive, but new advances are addressing even greater cycle life, and lower cost.
Compressed air storage also shows some promise for future storage, more so for larger systems. Work needs to be done to improve efficiency. The attractiveness of compressed air storage is the potential for very long cycle life, thus reducing overall cost in the long run.
Another option is to store energy as heat, and then use a stirling engine to convert the heat to electrical power. I'm not sure what the over all potential efficiency is? |
Edited by - path finder on 01/26/2012 10:07 PM |
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521 Posts |
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Vancouver
1808 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 9:51 PM
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Originally posted by hafilax
As for the incandescent bulb home heating, I think that it would be really inefficient unless you specifically set up your lamps in convection currents. At any rate the difference would be rather insignificant unless you are using a lot of high power bulbs. The exception would be in really small rooms.
I'm not sure what you're saying. Incandescent bulbs are exactly as "efficient" as baseboard heaters. 100% of the energy used by either shows up as heat in the house. (Except maybe the photons that escape through the windows.) The placement in the room is a factor, but some of the heat is radiant. And hot air from any source tends to rise to the ceiling. Hot air rads in floors even direct the warm air toward the ceiling. Any such source helps heat the mass of the building, which radiates back. Sources on one floor help heat the floor above, and attics/roofs usually are the best insulated places in houses.
Whether the "difference would be insignificant" suggest the amount of heat contributed is minor. Well, it's probably not when you add up all the incandescent bulbs in use in Canada. Power Smart certainly thinks it's a big deal. Power Smart even thinks standby loads are a big deal.
In addition, although we've been talking about "waste" heat in terms of lightbulbs, the very same considerations apply to all other domestic electrical systems that give off heat, such as fridges and stoves. Though Power Smart wants people to get rid of that beer fridge in the basement, the beer fridge's energy isn't all wasted. During heating season, it helps heat the house. |
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521 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2012 : 10:11 AM
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| ^ We in North America are very wasteful when it comes to energy. Some are trying hard to be more efficient and waste as little as possible. But there are many that don't give energy use a second thought and continue to waste. Power Smart has addressed this with electrical usage in BC, to postpone the need for new infrastructure such as dams and micro hydro. Perhaps that is part of the reason for implementing the somewhat controversial smart meters. Power usage can be addressed when demand is high and as well when there is inefficient usage, and the utilities can charge significantly more in those cases. That is the only way some will get the message, when they are forced to pay substantially more for the excessive usage. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1461 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2012 : 7:14 PM
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Originally posted by sgRant
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Originally posted by hafilax
As for the incandescent bulb home heating, I think that it would be really inefficient unless you specifically set up your lamps in convection currents. At any rate the difference would be rather insignificant unless you are using a lot of high power bulbs. The exception would be in really small rooms.
I'm not sure what you're saying. Incandescent bulbs are exactly as "efficient" as baseboard heaters. 100% of the energy used by either shows up as heat in the house. (Except maybe the photons that escape through the windows.) The placement in the room is a factor, but some of the heat is radiant. And hot air from any source tends to rise to the ceiling. Hot air rads in floors even direct the warm air toward the ceiling. Any such source helps heat the mass of the building, which radiates back. Sources on one floor help heat the floor above, and attics/roofs usually are the best insulated places in houses.
Whether the "difference would be insignificant" suggest the amount of heat contributed is minor. Well, it's probably not when you add up all the incandescent bulbs in use in Canada. Power Smart certainly thinks it's a big deal. Power Smart even thinks standby loads are a big deal.
In addition, although we've been talking about "waste" heat in terms of lightbulbs, the very same considerations apply to all other domestic electrical systems that give off heat, such as fridges and stoves. Though Power Smart wants people to get rid of that beer fridge in the basement, the beer fridge's energy isn't all wasted. During heating season, it helps heat the house.
I guess efficient was the wrong word. I don't think that lightbulbs will be a very effective means of distributing heat in a room. Once the room reaches equilibrium, they will contribute a proportional amount of heat.
It's not like LED and fluorescent bulbs don't produce heat. They do, just much less. In the end, I think that if you are electrically heating the home, an effective heating system will do a good job with or without the light bulbs and that there won't be a significant difference either way. When it comes time to try to keep the house cool, there is a difference. |
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Mountain Grammar Police
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Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2012 : 9:23 PM
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| Hey hafilax can you design a small tokomak suitable for powering one house off the grid? |
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Hope, BC
Canada
7095 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2012 : 10:34 PM
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| I created a Hojo motor and said the hell with the power company. |
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Vancouver
1808 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2012 : 11:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hafilax
When it comes time to try to keep the house cool, there is a difference.
Absolutely, and any heat produced by bulbs used outdoors is completely wasted.
Along with that observation it must be stated that we use indoor lighting mostly during the same portion of the year that we heat our houses. The same sunlight that warms our houses during the summer also allows us to see. |
Edited by - sgRant on 01/28/2012 11:53 PM |
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521 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2012 : 07:56 AM
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I created a Hojo motor and said the hell with the power company.
Hojo motor plans are a scam. You'd have better luck using your BFK as a giant lightning rod and directing the discharges to a giant super capacitor! |
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521 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2012 : 08:09 AM
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quote:
Absolutely, and any heat produced by bulbs used outdoors is completely wasted.
Along with that observation it must be stated that we use indoor lighting mostly during the same portion of the year that we heat our houses. The same sunlight that warms our houses during the summer also allows us to see.
It's very true that heat from light bulbs is not totally wasted here in Canada, as it helps to heat our home. That's especially good if a renewable energy source such as hydro is used to generate the electrical power. The extra electricity usage does however put extra pressure onto the grid and generating sources, particularly when demand is high and or is increasing.As I mentioned previously, if electricity usage is not cut back, new infrastructure would be needed sooner rather than later.
Also, most places in the world use dirty electrical power which is an inefficient and dirtier method to heat a home than natural gas or propane in a home furnace for example. |
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660 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2012 : 08:27 AM
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Hojo motor! Snicker, snicker.
Yeah, right, perpetual motion at last! All it takes is a clever arrangement of magnets. And when you aren't using the Hojo remove the magnets and place them on your fuel lines to "magnetically disassociate the fuel ions" and get 200 MPG in your car, or sharpen razor blades, cure cancer and become a chick magnet! |
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3022 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2012 : 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by path finder
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Absolutely, and any heat produced by bulbs used outdoors is completely wasted.
Along with that observation it must be stated that we use indoor lighting mostly during the same portion of the year that we heat our houses. The same sunlight that warms our houses during the summer also allows us to see.
It's very true that heat from light bulbs is not totally wasted here in Canada, as it helps to heat our home. That's especially good if a renewable energy source such as hydro is used to generate the electrical power. The extra electricity usage does however put extra pressure onto the grid and generating sources, particularly when demand is high and or is increasing.As I mentioned previously, if electricity usage is not cut back, new infrastructure would be needed sooner rather than later.
Also, most places in the world use dirty electrical power which is an inefficient and dirtier method to heat a home than natural gas or propane in a home furnace for example.
Despite all the knowldege we have available and the the increasing hydro rates, I am seeing an incredible number of people that flick on their outdoor lights prior to sunset and left on unattended late into the night or all night, some 24 hours, some houses bathed in over 8 outdoor fixtures and stands.
This makes no sense and the mantra of " security" is mostly unwarranted & unproven especially when many of these people close their blinds and expect their neighbors to stare into the glare for them...not!
I have to wonder how much needless energy is wasted on outdoor lighting and why the majority of municipalities do not have codes and neighbor-friendly lighting bylaws and Dark Sky policies? |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1461 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2012 : 6:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alexcanuck
Hojo motor! Snicker, snicker.
Yeah, right, perpetual motion at last! All it takes is a clever arrangement of magnets. And when you aren't using the Hojo remove the magnets and place them on your fuel lines to "magnetically disassociate the fuel ions" and get 200 MPG in your car, or sharpen razor blades, cure cancer and become a chick magnet!
"Perpetual motion" got a bad rap so now it's been re-branded as "over unity". |
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Renewable Energy in the Home
