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| gyppo
Intermediate Member
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Edmonton, AB
Canada
747 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2011 : 7:35 PM
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This week-end I had quite the shock. We are used to doing almost all of our trips as overnight outings, camping wherever it's nice and scenic, or convenient. Saturday I found out that you cannot camp anywhere in the rockies parks outside of established campgrounds. Major bummer!
I understand why it is this way. However, there aren't campsites everywhere, and if one was to follow this rule a large part of the parks seems like it would be inaccessible.
What is the actual, un-official deal with this, if there is one? for instance, people camp for days on the columbia icefield, however this is technically illegal. and what do people do in order to do glacier climbs with long approaches? it seems like getting a bivi permit is a chore.
Having all the campgrounds already designated seems to take a lot of the adventure out of mountain travel. not all of it, but a lot of it.
So here it is, I'm wondering what people do, and if what we were told is just the tourist/gumby speech. Do parks let people camp in the backcountry outside of campgrounds if they are doing a trip in an area without one? Or will we have to get our "real" backcountry fix outside of the parks? (I'm moving to Edmonton in November).
What about in the Kananaskis area, and in Peter Lougheed provincial park? what is the rule there?
Thanks,
Benoit |
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 Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
6302 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2011 : 8:03 PM
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| All you have to do is go get a permit. Places like the Wapta, or Columbia OBVIOUSLY you are allowed to overnight there and many other places. You can't go willy nilly wherever you please near areas with established sites. If there are any around you need to stay there. For objectives that require a bivy, all you have to do is get a bivy permit and there are rules to follow when bivouacing to minimize your footprint and presence. If the trip is commonly done as a day trip then you need to do it as a day trip. For trips typically done with bivies, well then you can get a permit. Of course, alot of the visitor centre folks are pretty useless so.... Anything that you would probably do on a quick trip that requires a bivy will probably have been done before. Wenkchemna Pass for example is a very common daytrip, however there are no campgrounds around and Deltafor takes several days. You can get a bivy permit for this to stay at Wenkchemna pass...but only if you are attempting the peak. All the info is on their website that can be easily found with a simple search. |
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Edmonton, AB
Canada
47 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2011 : 11:30 PM
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| I think in the provincial parks in Kananaskis you can't random camp, and are expected to stick to established sites. However, depending where you go in Kananaskis, if you are in a wildland park (different classification) then you are allowed to random camp. I could be wrong though. |
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78 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 10:15 AM
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| Bivy permits are grea |
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78 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 10:22 AM
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Bivy permits are great for the National Parks. Most of the park areas in Kananaskis also require you use designated backcountry campgrounds.
If you are interested in solitude and lack of rules around designated camping your best bet is the Bighorn. The western 3/4 is all non-motorized.
Same mountains as Banff and Jasper - notice how the parks shrink close to Sask Crossing?, with very little traffic. Head into the White Goat, Siffleur or most of the Job/Cline area and you won't see a soul.
http://www.srd.alberta.ca/RecreationPublicUse/RecreationOnPublicLand/BighornBackcountry/Default.aspx
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 12:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gyppo
it seems like getting a bivi permit is a chore.
Sorry to inconvenience you.
You have to get a permit to camp at the backcountry sites, too, and I haven't found it to be a problem. The process has the benefits of controlling the number of people who go into those areas, to keep them nice for everyone, and keeping the damage that campers do inside a limited area. Random camping just spreads it out all over the countryside.
A bivy permit has the added advantage of making sure someone knows where you are in case you don't come back safely. Might save your life sometime.
Try Kananaskis. The Alberta provincial government views provincial parks as places to party and drive your quad. |
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2421 Posts |
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Whistler, BC
Canada
1176 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 2:44 PM
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by gyppo
it seems like getting a bivi permit is a chore.
Sorry to inconvenience you.
You have to get a permit to camp at the backcountry sites, too, and I haven't found it to be a problem. The process has the benefits of controlling the number of people who go into those areas, to keep them nice for everyone, and keeping the damage that campers do inside a limited area. Random camping just spreads it out all over the countryside.
A bivy permit has the added advantage of making sure someone knows where you are in case you don't come back safely. Might save your life sometime.
Try Kananaskis. The Alberta provincial government views provincial parks as places to party and drive your quad.
Perhaps you are reading more into Benoit's post than he intended. Perhaps I misunderstand your suggestion that backcountry dispersed camping is akin to partying and driving quads, but it seems to me that there are areas in Kananaskis Country where random backcountry camping or bivying is legal--at least it was. There are a number of multi-day routes in that area that do not have hardened sites, but do have connecting trail systems. I understood that the rules were made differently for Kananaskis so that people could enjoy the backcountry without some of the paperwork and restriction typical (for whatever reasons that I have no interest in debating) of the mountain national parks.
Below is current for Kananaskis.
quote:
2010/2011 Backcountry Campgrounds
For all the details download this letter-size page here (50 KB)
You'll need the Adobe®'s free Acrobat® Reader® (Download here) installed on your computer to open, view and print this reference pamphlet in PDF® format.
Please check here the Backcountry Use Guidelines (will open an other browser window)
Backcountry Camping Permits:
Backcountry camping permits are required at all designated backcountry campgrounds in Kananaskis Country. Random backcountry camping without a permit is allowed in most Wildland Provincial Parks (excepting Sparrow Hawk and Memorial Lakes areas) and Provincial Forest Lands.
Backcountry camping permits cost $12.00 per person (aged 16 and older) per night. A non-refundable reservation fee of $12.00 (GST included) will be applied to all telephone and advance bookings. These fees are used to offset the cost of the Kananaskis Country backcountry camping and trails program. Persons under 16 years of age are not required to pay the fee, but do require a permit.
Permits can be purchased in person at Barrier Lake Visitor Information Centre and the Peter Lougheed Provincial Park Visitor Information Centre during normal hours of operation.
To purchase a permit by phone contact 403-678-3136 (In Alberta toll-free by first dialing 310-
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 3:32 PM
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Yes, it looks like you misunderstood my reply. Or perhaps you just don't agree with it.
The gist of it was that it shouldn't be considered to be an 'inconvenience' to get a bivy permit, since it prevents people from overrunning the backcountry.
I consider it a responsibility to abide by the rules of the National Parks, not (for whatever reasons) to try to find ways around them. Why would anyone (especially on this board) think he is entitled to be an exception to those rules? I don't see why it would be a 'shock' to find out that enough people want to go to the mountains that some kind of control has had to be put in place.
Again, I would refer you to the related thread under 'Hiking'.
My second point is that my experiences in the provincially administered areas show significantly less concern for the environment than in the national parks. Check out the entire area from Rocky Mountain House through Nordegg to the Park boundary, which besides being trampled by the oil patch, is now a favourite haunt for quads and partiers. |
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974 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 3:49 PM
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i like to sleep where ever looks comfortable,permit or no permit.
if i see a dead tree that looks inviting,i'll dig into it with my ice axe,crawl in and enjoy a nice sleep. Or just rip up a big hunk of moss and slither underneath it,amongst the beetles and centipedes.
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Powell River, bc
Canada
2540 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 4:00 PM
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| Don't worry Peter,Benoit is a no trace kind of guy :) |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3509 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 4:46 PM
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The backcountry fees in the National Parks are outrageous. Combine the cost of entry to the park, and for a family to spend time backpacking, you can run up a pretty serious bill.
A four night trip for a family with one 17yr old and one 12yr old would be:
$80 for a parks entry pass.
$40 per adult, 3x = $120
~$200 in parks fees for a four night backpack trip. Ouch. |
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974 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 4:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by johngenx
The backcountry fees in the National Parks are outrageous. Combine the cost of entry to the park, and for a family to spend time backpacking, you can run up a pretty serious bill.
A four night trip for a family with one 17yr old and one 12yr old would be:
$80 for a parks entry pass.
$40 per adult, 3x = $120
~$200 in parks fees for a four night backpack trip. Ouch.
there are patches of moss that can fit a whole family under them you know |
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Whistler, BC
Canada
1176 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 4:56 PM
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quote:
I consider it a responsibility to abide by the rules of the National Parks, not (for whatever reasons) to try to find ways around them. Why would anyone (especially on this board) think he is entitled to be an exception to those rules? I don't see why it would be a 'shock' to find out that enough people want to go to the mountains that some kind of control has had to be put in place.
Actually, it appears I did understand you, and although I don't disagree with your position, we are seeing different aspects of Benoit's post.
If one is from another jurisdiction, as Benoit is, the rules might be a surprise. Few areas in North Am are administered as in the national mountain parks. Your other thread notes this.
Benoit asked if there was an "un-official" deal. On the Coast in BC, there are "un-official" deals because there are not enough people to write clear policy or to recognize pre-existing practice. As he noted, climbers can "bivouac" in national parks trekkers may not--this could appear to be a double standard.
Benoit is being polite. He does not say he will go against regulations, he's simply clarifying the protocol. He asks if there are alternatives in other areas. Good question.
Benoit did not ask where he could attend a bush party or drive a quad.
John does bring up a very important point, however.
quote:
The backcountry fees in the National Parks are outrageous. Combine the cost of entry to the park, and for a family to spend time backpacking, you can run up a pretty serious bill.
A four night trip for a family with one 17yr old and one 12yr old would be:
$80 for a parks entry pass.
$40 per adult, 3x = $120
~$200 in parks fees for a four night backpack trip. Ouch.
I have been writing our MP about this for a while. It is understood that the user-pay system has been introduced. It is also clear that this may prevent families from enjoying a backcountry experience in the national mountain parks.
It still amazes me that I can backpack in a national forest, national park, and/or wilderness in the mountains of the Western USA for just a five dollar registration fee. What a difference in approaches and values. |
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Jasper, ab
Canada
1029 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 5:56 PM
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It may be expensive for a family of four to go backpacking if you go only once, but if you go to the national Parks more than once, then it's a bargain. The cost of a family season park pass is $136 and backcountry passes for a season are $68. Children under 12 are free. So for Johns family of four it would cost $136 + 4 X $68 = $408. If you come five times the cost per visit is $81. Where else can you take a family of four for a multiday trip for $81. Not Disneyland, not Calaway park or the PNE, I can assure you. And those season passes are good for 27 Canadian National parks and 77 historical sites across Canada, so most Canadians live not too far from a National Park.
As far as random camping goes in Jasper, it is very easy to get a permit. It helps if you come prepared with a map with the exact location that you want to camp or have the co-ordinates. That will help, big time to speed things up. The only rules, basically, is that you have to be more than 5 kms from an established backcountry camp and more than 1 Km from an ACC hut.They do have what is called semi primitive and primitive camp sites and if you are planning to camp near one of those spots, then they may ask you to move to those camps. IE Castleguard Meadows.But few of the staff know where those primitive camps are. |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
6302 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 6:16 PM
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quote:
The backcountry fees in the National Parks are outrageous. Combine the cost of entry to the park, and for a family to spend time backpacking, you can run up a pretty serious bill.
A four night trip for a family with one 17yr old and one 12yr old would be:
$80 for a parks entry pass.
$40 per adult, 3x = $120
~$200 in parks fees for a four night backpack trip. Ouch.
Just move in to the parks. Only $40ish per year for an annual back country pass and you can get it at the same time that you pick up your free parks pass  |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3509 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 7:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lobo
It may be expensive for a family of four to go backpacking if you go only once, but if you go to the national Parks more than once, then it's a bargain.
So it only works for people that live close enough to the parks to visit multiple times.
The National Parks are to the benefit of all Canadians, and people should have access, regardless of income levels. I will pay a few bucks extra in taxes so that we don't have "cost recovery from users" bullshit.
What outrages me is that Brewsters bus passengers pay $5 per day, not the $9.80 per day others are expected to. Yeah, we need to subsidize bus riders? Huh?
As for abiding by the bivy rules, I typically do unless something happens where I have to change plans. While I detest the fees, I strongly agree that we need to minimize impact. |
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78 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 7:22 PM
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I agree with Lobo, the cost for an annual passes to the National Parks is an absolute bargain and I certainly don't resent paying it. I love the National Parks and enjoy backpacking there, but there are cheaper, wilder and equally scenic options outside if you are comfortable without maintained trails
Another great option from Edmonton is Willmore Wilderness Park - long approaches but you won't need to register and won't run into anyone except the odd horse outfitter in the valleys or a sheep hunter up high.
Peter - are you having a bad day? The hyperbole about provincial lands is a bit much and not accurate - there is no oil and gas or quads west of the Tershishner/Bighorn Dam off Highway 11 - thats a full 70 km of country to explore thru to Sask. Crossing.
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| gyppo
Intermediate Member
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Edmonton, AB
Canada
747 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 8:02 PM
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Lobo: thanks for your reply, you have told me almost everything I wanted to know (and hear!) It's too bad none of the three different people from Parks Canada I spoke with were able to tell me this! Also, I have not been able to find this on the Parks Canada sites.
Mitch, thanks for clarifying things, you are spot on!
Caribou, thanks for the suggestions. I'll look into them.
Peter1955:
you're reading into things way too much. Look at my TRs to see what kind of backcountry trip I do, you'll see that I am quite environmentally conscious. I get extremely upset when I see people ruining the backcountry. There's no need to get bent out of shape thinking that I drive quads in the alpine and make campfires above treeline with Krummholz and diesel.
Getting a permit IS an inconvenience whatever the purpose of the regulation may be. Any douche bag can get a permit and make a mess where they bivy. Nobody's going to go up and check the next day and fine them. BECAUSE it's an inconvenience it is certainly a deterrent to morons who don't give a shit about nature.
RE: ATVs and partying.
The areas of SW BC where I recreate are not even administered by anyone. You go anywhere you like, anytime, for as long as you want, for free. In 6 years I have seen very, very little damage in the alpine and very, very few dumb asses ruining the backcountry. I just drive a few hours out of town and go to unpopular areas. That basically means everywhere. People here tend to congregate in places that are popular, known and have easy access. There are a few of these palces, and everywhere else is deserted.
And no I don't think I'm entitled to break the rules. again you are not reading my post properly. See Msulkers' reply. edit: or maybe I didn't make myself clear.
T2C:
If you find my girlfriend a position in one of the park hospitals for an OB/GYN we will move right away!
As for the fees. Here on the coast, there are no fees outside of provincial parks. You can take your entire family for a 12-day trip and it will cost you nothing more than food and fuel, so you can see why some people find the fees expensive.
Of course there are annoying yahoos in some places close to the city. But drive 2-3 hours and the yahoos mysteriously disappear. Here it seems that the easier the access and the closer you are to the population centres, the more idiots and garbage you see.
Strangely enough, when we camped at the overflow campground near Jasper last week-end, we were awakened at 12:30 by a drunk chick driving her SUV through the forest. She "thought it was the road" and she had gotten stuck and all her friends were giggling away, trying to help her turn around, driving into trees and whatnot. This despite the fact that when they drove within 5m of our tent (five metres yes) I heard someone in the car laughing saying " we're gonna get stuck". Sarah ran out of the tent in bare feet, I thought she was going to kill them. We were sadly reminded that all the fees in the world will not keep people like these away.
Of note in the parks also:
-buses going up on the Athabasca glacier
-2 gondolas
-3 ski hills
-2 towns with 1000000 restaurants and ski shops and hotels
So you can see how I would be upset that Parks tries to protect the backcountry by making it more difficult for caring people to enjoy, while building paved roads, trams and ski hills to attract every tom, dick and harry regardless of whether or not they have a brain.
Despite this I absolutely see why the rules are in place and I will certainly follow them (I happen to be a bit of a stickler). I'd never given any thought to backcountry camping as I've only ever done day trips in the rockies.
thanks again for the useful replies.
Benoit |
Edited by - gyppo on 09/13/2011 8:04 PM |
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Jasper, ab
Canada
1029 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2011 : 8:18 PM
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Benoit,
I posted this on Bivouac a while back. I wrote this word for word from a form I picked up at the trails office
I have acquired two random camping permits in the last ten days in Jasper with no difficulties at all, one permit was for the Alexandra River headwaters in Banff and one today for the headwaters of the Athabasca river. Here is the info I received
JASPER BIVOUACING GUIDELINES
Aside from designated backcountry campgrounds and random camping, there is a third way for people to legally camp in the backcountry-Bivouacs. Bivouacs are used for climbers, mostly on alpine routes that cannot be completed in a day.
Random camping is not permitted in the summer in zones of the park classified as "frontcountry" or "semi-primitive". However, an exception is made to permit climbers to bivouac in the following scenarios: -Climbers are on a long mountaineering route and are above the vegetated alpine zone (above 2200 m) -Climbers are on an approach to a climb and need a bivouac to facilitate and early/safe start to a climb
BIVOUAC REGULATIONS
-The party must actually intend to undertake the climb of a mountain -The climb must be one which reasonably requires a bivouac in order to get a safe start, or because it cannot be done in a day. Trying routes too early in the season does not count -the bivouac must be as close to the start of the route as possible -the bivouac must be above the alpine zone and off meadows on an unvegetated slope -no fires permitted and no tent ditches or trenches -Pack out all litter- Strive for zero impact camping -A small tent may be used, however it must be collapsed and all gear concealed if leaving it during a climb -If a designated campsite is nearby, it must be used in preference to a bivouac in an undisturbed site. -Group size is limited to six -The bivouac is not intended as a base camp and must be removed when the climb is continued -Solid human waste should be deposited in a small excavated hole and rocks should be placed on top of human waste. Burn toilet paper
ROUTES WHERE BIVOUACS ARE NOT ALLOWED-JNP
-Mt. Athabasca -Mt. Edith Cavell -Mt. Fryatt (use ACC hut or headwall campsite) -Mt. Colin (use ACC hut) -Ramparts (use ACC hut) Eremite valley
ROUTES WHERE BIVOUACS ARE PERMITTED IN JNP
-Andromeda strain -Charlton/Unwin -Wooley & Diadem -Alberta (bivy must be 1 km from Alberta hut) -Slipstream on Snowdome -Edith Cavell-North Face main summit, McKeith Spur, Colorado Spur at a site near the glacier -Fryatt West Ridge, bivi sites at the base of the ridge -Columbia Icefields peaks-Castleguard, Bryce, Mt. Columbia, Twins -Mt. Christie- NE face -Mt. Brussels- NE ridge
SPECIAL RULES- ALPINE CLUB HUTS
To prevent the "stealth" use of ACC huts, to minimize the use of firewood and the waste deposited into ACC privvies, no bivouacing is permitted within 1 km of ACC huts
Any unusual requests that do not fit within the above criteria will be forwarded to Jasper's Public Safety Specialist for approval
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Whistler, BC
Canada
1176 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2011 : 10:35 AM
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| Thanks for the cross-post, Lobo. That is helpful. |
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Overnighting in the mountain parks
