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2421 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 2:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by another jeff
Just one note, muscle growth is due to hypertrophy - the growth of existing cells. You don't gain muscle mass via exercise by growing extra cells.
Cambium was counting muscle clusters but suggested that you couldn't build muscle strength by exercising. |
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Langley
237 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 2:22 PM
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| Muscle cluster? That's a new one. Do you mean muscle groups? Either way that doesn't make any sense. |
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 2:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by another jeff
Muscle cluster? That's a new one. Do you mean muscle groups? Either way that doesn't make any sense.
Sigh. I was describing a grouping (bundle, bunch, collective) of muscles which when combined might form a quadracep or a gluteaus maximus. Simple nomenclature.
Review the postings.
My contention was that you can improve muscle strength by exercise. Cambium's suggestion was that muscle strength is limited by the number of cells available, and that we are therefore limited in how strong we can become. It came across as 'there's no use in trying because you can't get any better at it anyway'.
Or do you agree with that?
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Langley
237 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 3:30 PM
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Cambium strikes me as an odd person, but I don't think he's so stupid as to argue that strength gain is impossible via exercise like you're asserting. Not everyone will see the same strength gains while performing the same exercises and not everyone is blessed with some kind of great strength. That's a fact.
Clearly you feel that based on your reading he's misinformed and you want to correct this, but I think there's more than a little misinformation floating around in this thread. If you know what I mean. |
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vancouver, bc
Canada
987 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 4:12 PM
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I always find downhill hiking hard on the body, knees, legs, back etc.
Try backcountry skiing, good exercise on the up, float downhill, all the fun with much less soreness! For me at least, YMMV. |
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65 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 5:16 PM
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No I haven't tried the paleo diet - but I have an opinion on it.
I think it is crazy to eliminate rice, wheat, and other grains from ones diet because they are too rich in carbohydrates.
I know some very fit athletes who eat copious amounts of carbohydrates because of their huge calorie expenditure. They don't seem too worried about eating some bread or rice. I also know some national level athletes that are vegetarian and they also eat rice and wheat products. It doesn't seem to be holding them back.
On a personal note, when I was in my late teens and early twenties I used to do long cycling tours (month long tours). Our cycling group ate breakfast, another small mid morning meal, lunch, another small mid afternoon meal, supper and then a pre bed snack. WE ate huge amounts of food. Eating was continuous and all of us were rail thin. Eating a whole box of Kraft dinner each wasn't unusual. (we didn't have much imagination for creating nutritious meals)
And yes I was sore after biking say 70 miles all day with 40 pounds gear. But I just don't think it was the kraft dinner that made me sore. (Kraft dinner is made from durham wheat)
Today, I still get sore when I am really active. When I am not active I don't get sore - just put on a few pounds. For me I think the the cause of soreness is linked to being really active and over doing it.
I would bet that over 90% of the Chinese national sports team members eat rice and they seem to be holding their own in world competitions. Do sherpas eat rice? |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3503 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 5:33 PM
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This "carbs are bad" thing is stupid. Seriously. We need carbs. The reason more and more people are fat is because they eat too much of whatever they eat, and they eat tons of refined sugar that contains no nutritional value. Pop is a prime example.
I eat ~4200 calories per day including TONS of carbs, and I'm 6' 155lbs and <10% BF. I tried lowering my carb intake, and wow, did I feel like shit.
That said, I don't have that onion skin "muscle exposed" look that actors/models/magazine covers herald as the ideal physique. No, I'm about function over form. |
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3022 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 6:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by peter1955
quote:
Originally posted by cambium
@ incantare >>> take your time on your hikes , use a pole for downhill support , Drink lots of H2O and use supplements along the route to ease the Ligament and Muscle wear & tear [ i.e. glucosamine +chondroitin and natural steroid Cod or halibat oils . ]
Some people are just not blessed with x number of great muscle-cells. We are all born with an individual limited number of muscle cells.
Pain does not equal no gain , pain is a warning sign to lower the rpms and take some breaks , before you break.
Hydration is important.
My, what a font of misinformation you are.
- Use 'poles' for downhill support. One just throws you off balance and you can't take as much weight as with a pair.
- Studies show mixed and contradictory results from taking chondroitin and glucosamine sulphate, but even the most positive ones say the benefits (if any) take months to appear. Even if they do help, they are hardly something that would be any help "along the route".
- "We are all born with an individual limited number of muscle cells." So you're saying we can't build muscle, but are stuck with the muscles we had when we're born? 'Fraid not. I have a lot more muscle now than I did when I was 6. - Pain is symptomatic of many different things, one of which would include muscle development resulting in less pain later on. Another 'fail'.
- Hydration is always important. So what's your point?
- Halibut and cod liver oils are 'natural steroids'? Maybe that explains why I was such a muscle-bound kid. Not! Couldn't find that information anywhere. What I DID find was that the benefits of cod liver oil might be outweighed by the risks.
Maybe you should and try getting your medical information from more legitimate sources.
Bit of an oddball yourself , eh ?
1/ Along the route means just that , as well as in am & pm , to keep your blood plasma levels at prime for conversion to your ligaments.
It [ chondroitin/glucosamine ], or organic fresh sources , have healed my shoulder ligaments and knee ligaments at different times of my life .
You are right about one thing , It does take Time , there are no fast fix miracle cures .
2 & 3 / I/ve taken Human Biology and medical training and related courses , and Muscle cells are like neural cells , everyone is born with x-number . You can exercise and "inflate " your muscle Size , but NOT Your given Number of Muscle cells .
That is why , when you tear them , a scar tissue is formed to connect them , BUT there will always be a weak point.
I know that one too from injuries-experience.
[Next time you end up in Jail , see if you can compete with Bubba the Muscle Head.]
4 / Poles , only one is necessary for navigating thru streams and slopes , unless you are feeble !
5/ natural steroids [ halibut oil ] works slowly and does increase muscle mass and gives them that extra "octane " during workouts .
I used to be a athlete-body builder. Track & field. Shot put . 5-miler. Water Polo. The Jocks showed me this tip without resorting to synthetic crap.
These milder supplements , along with others , also seem to steady the nerves to rock solid Trophy-style Shooting and camera panning.
Either that , or I am born lucky .
Can you or could you Run the Mile in 4 minutes 20 seconds ?
[Age is another factor , but it appears that the OP is young , by his profile pic.] |
Edited by - cambium on 09/08/2011 6:21 PM |
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289 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 6:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Incantare
I'm sore!!
...So my question is... What do you do before, during and or after a short/long hike? Anyone has the same problem with solution?
Define sore?
If it is basic aches associated with dormant, atrophied muscles being exerted, it's a good thing. Training = repetetive stress and recovery.
If it's DOMS, prevention is best. Downhills cause microtears to quad tissue, triggering DOMS for the next 3-4 days or so. Poles (shudder) would be helpful, but taking it slow works. If you do pound the downhill, the suggestion for an icebath is solid. ASAP. If there is a cold creek by the car, get your legs into it. Otherwise, as soon as you get home.
NSAIDs help pain and speed recovery.
If soreness = injury, diagnose and treat the condition (R.I.C.E. usually). If the injury is overuse, rest and/or modify activity. If caused by muscle imbalance, appropriate strengthening for opposing muscle group as well as (proper) stretching.
Stretching before = Never. Likely to cause more injuries than it prevents.
Stetching after = optional. Usual, to point of tension, hold 30 seconds or so. Repeat.
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2011 : 11:06 AM
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It is possible I'm misinterpreting this, "Some people are just not blessed with x number of great muscle-cells. We are all born with an individual limited number of muscle cells."
but taken in context, all Cambium seems to be doing is to provide a rationalization for slacking off if an exercise might hurt. That context includes, "Pain does not equal no gain , pain is a warning sign to lower the rpms and take some breaks , before you break." Huh?
He suggested using one hiking pole to take the weight off sore knees, then says they're only for people who are "feeble" when I point out that using two takes even more weight off. If you'd like to research glucosamine/chondroitin or the risk/benefits of fish oils, you'll find that much of the advice Cambium offers is at best unsubstantiated and contradictory, and at worst dangerous. Kind of like a 'Q-Ray' ad - "It just makes me feel....better!", or 'It worked for me!" with no data or research to back him up. And no evidence of any experience as a hiker that might add some legitimacy to his opinions.
At the risk of seeming impolite, I'm getting tired of all the free-flow mental drivel the man continually bangs out.
Hey, Cambium! Do some hikes, post a few trip reports, pay your dues, and earn some respect.
And might I suggest you look at postings like Bushmaster's for some practical and CORRECT advice? That's the stuff they teach in courses for first aid, training programs for fitness instructors and personal trainers (I did mine through the 'Y', St John's Ambulance and the Red Cross), and I assume in medical programs.
Where did you say you took your training again? The same place you and Roger Bannister ran your 4-minute miles?
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3022 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2011 : 12:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by peter1955
It is possible I'm misinterpreting this, "Some people are just not blessed with x number of great muscle-cells. We are all born with an individual limited number of muscle cells."
but taken in context, all Cambium seems to be doing is to provide a rationalization for slacking off if an exercise might hurt. That context includes, "Pain does not equal no gain , pain is a warning sign to lower the rpms and take some breaks , before you break." Huh?
He suggested using one hiking pole to take the weight off sore knees, then says they're only for people who are "feeble" when I point out that using two takes even more weight off. If you'd like to research glucosamine/chondroitin or the risk/benefits of fish oils, you'll find that much of the advice Cambium offers is at best unsubstantiated and contradictory, and at worst dangerous. Kind of like a 'Q-Ray' ad - "It just makes me feel....better!", or 'It worked for me!" with no data or research to back him up. And no evidence of any experience as a hiker that might add some legitimacy to his opinions.
At the risk of seeming impolite, I'm getting tired of all the free-flow mental drivel the man continually bangs out.
Hey, Cambium! Do some hikes, post a few trip reports, pay your dues, and earn some respect.
And might I suggest you look at postings like Bushmaster's for some practical and CORRECT advice? That's the stuff they teach in courses for first aid, training programs for fitness instructors and personal trainers (I did mine through the 'Y', St John's Ambulance and the Red Cross), and I assume in medical programs.
Where did you say you took your training again? The same place you and Roger Bannister ran your 4-minute miles?
Defensive Man , non ? Hope you are not one of those other defensive trail-terrorists either [ie irresponsible doggy owner ].
Any how the CT link below relates to recent Pole Opinions [ your poll of me this week is silly ]
http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=40770&whichpage=2
Unless your are trying to profile me in depth for the handfull of lurking narcs or enviro-killers on this public forum [ they seem to work hand-in-hand ], let me entertain you .
While I was pushing my 4min20sec mile and doing membership at the University Gym and hoping to shoot for the Olympics [ the mile then was 3min 58 secs]I blew my knee out on Offroad-enduro-riding standing up ski-style , and later ended crawling off an 7000+ ft mtn .
Took almost a full year of recuperation and specific supplements and diet to regain my knees and go back to a 5 or six minute mile and regular 22 kms hike with 40 lbs .
Feel like a fresh happy baby in the am.
Another time I pushed the limits of baseball throwing 100 mph+ balls full range.
That hurt a while.
I agreed with you earlier that this is a long term fix , there are no short term miracle cures .
Loosing weight and reducing the drag helps too .
Building the surrounding muscle groups around the injury is beneficial .
Your body is not like an engine , once damaged & rebuilt , there are weak links that last and must be treated carefully.
What is your obsession with my privacy [ trip reports ] and my medical training ?
University creditted Human Anatomy and Human Biology and Rehab and R.N. Credits & Human Chemistry good enough qualifications for you , as well as good old fashioned hard manual non-managerial work-skills ?
Despite your taunts , I will eventually post some TR , being mindfull of the CT Guidelines[ which are lacking in one or two categories ] and the privacy of my family & guests Images-Privacy.[Hard to screen those outof most of my pic-trips.]
As I said on this thread , many of my posts do include pics of note . For you , that is not enough ?
Good day pete !
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Edited by - cambium on 09/09/2011 12:10 PM |
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2011 : 12:29 PM
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No response to my actual concerns about misinformation, I see. At least 'another jeff' raised some valid points about one of them.
The link to using hiking poles was helpful, though. Most of the postings substantiated what I was saying, and disagreed with your two (contradictory) ideas that (a) one pole is better than two, and that (b) hiking poles are only for those who are "feeble". Nothing like experienced people to get the facts straight, eh?
What's that joke? 'Engage brain before putting mouth in gear'. |
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3022 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2011 : 12:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by peter1955
No response to my actual concerns about misinformation, I see. At least 'another jeff' raised some valid points about one of them.
The link to using hiking poles was helpful, though. Most of the postings substantiated what I was saying, and disagreed with your two (contradictory) ideas that (a) one pole is better than two, and that (b) hiking poles are only for those who are "feeble". Nothing like experienced people to get the facts straight, eh?
What's that joke? 'Engage brain before putting mouth in gear'.
Did I say that "one pole is better than two "?... .
Use two if you want , I'm happy and agile with one and need my other hand free.
P.s. I find all our poles , seems someone is always loosing one on the trail , guess that one really wasn't necessary for the original owner either !
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Edited by - cambium on 09/09/2011 12:43 PM |
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289 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2011 : 5:45 PM
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On Poles, I don`t use them because:
(a) the trend of wide-bottomed urban pole walkers kind of ruined it for me. That said, I did have a pole walker keep a 6:00 mile pace with me for a while in the Portland Marathon, where Pole Walkers are practically VIPs.
(b) poles are extra pack weight
(c) poles are awkward when not in use, such as climbing or scrambling (collapsible poles might help if you trusted them)
(d) it would be more thing to spend money on.
That said, there have been many times I would have loved to have a pair of poles. Downhills, you bet.
But also crossing snowfields. I have been dusted by pole hikers going up Golden Ears or the First-Pump shortcut at Seymour (in snow). Poles are much easier than (laboriously) staking your way up with ice axe, and more stable than an axe in cane position.
In summer, the axe is useless -- for example, crossing the washout to Ring Creek on the way to Opal Cone. On a dusty summer day with a heavy pack and you`re wobbly from heat, poles are practically survival gear:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/realaworld/4960696514/in/photostream/
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Edited by - Bushmaster on 09/10/2011 11:36 AM |
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Whistler, BC
Canada
422 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2011 : 12:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by pipestone
No I haven't tried the paleo diet - but I have an opinion on it.
I think it is crazy to eliminate rice, wheat, and other grains from ones diet because they are too rich in carbohydrates.
I know some very fit athletes who eat copious amounts of carbohydrates because of their huge calorie expenditure. They don't seem too worried about eating some bread or rice. I also know some national level athletes that are vegetarian and they also eat rice and wheat products. It doesn't seem to be holding them back.
I would bet that over 90% of the Chinese national sports team members eat rice and they seem to be holding their own in world competitions. Do sherpas eat rice?
I would bet that 100% of them eat rice, and wrt to the sherpas I imagine most of their calories still come from fermented yaks milk and butter (Very high fat content) that they have been eating up in the mountains for who knows how long. Intensive agriculture (where carbs come from) doesn't work too well up there. Although with westernization/globalization, I'm sure whatever Lab experiment our society labels as food, now makes its way up there too.
I think there are huge misconceptions about this. The premise of what Cordain suggests in his research and his books (and other authors with similar ideology surrounding diet) is that there is a lot of food out there that our bodies haven't come to process all that well in the relatively short times they've been around.
The Issue isn't really about carbs.
Although since its been brought up; if you were to crash in a light aircraft anywhere in the temperate world, which macro nutrient would you be attaining the vast majority of your calories from? Carbohydrate, protein, or fat? Think about it a little, and you'll come to see that those of us from Northerly climes by ancestry, didn't have much access to carbs for all but a few weeks of every year.
That traditionally seasonal availability of carbohydrate is the crux of the obesity problem now. Pre-agriculture, sugars were available only just before winter triggering our bodies' insulin response resulting in fat storage serving us quite well going into the cold. Throughout the fall, winter and spring we would lean out eating primarily protein and fat - the only nutrients available in significant quantity. Think bears - same-same but different.
Now, for the first time in human history, those carbohydrates are available year-round so that there is no end to the insulin response and no end to the fat storage. Paradoxically, carbs tend to be the easiest nutrient for humans to produce en-masse even though its the only macro-nutrient our bodies do not require to be taken externally. Fact is, the human body can create carbs on demand from fat, so that is the fuel source we have adapted to and tend to run best on.
Of course, like in everything else about being human, nobody is completely the same. Two people on the exact same diet can hardly be expected to respond in identical fashion. That is what makes evolution so perfect at design. Perfect in its imperfectness.
What the Paleo Diet and other similar diet theories try to emphasize is eating micro nutrient dense/calorie poor foods when compared to the Standard American Diet (SAD) which tends to be calorie rich/micro nutrient poor.
I suppose that eating or not eating carbs is something you might like to consider if you are trying to lose weight or maintain weight or what ever. But the arguments for limiting your intake of wheat, legumes, dairy etc have far more complex reasons. When I see people start eating Paleo that are already thin, they tend to gain weight in the form of muscle mass suggesting something they were eating before was preventing this.
The beauty of an elimination diet is that it doesn't take too much work to figure out where your personal ideal lies. The less hardline approach to Paleo is starting off with a baseline diet that we know to have very little potential for harm or intolerance such as free range, or wild meats, seafood and vegetables - then add in other stuff to see how you feel and gauge your body's reactions.
I went into all this with a very healthy scepticism, but came out enthralled with all the research that has gone into this subject. Most dietary dogma of the last 50-100 years is the direct result of "Big Food" subsidies and their subsequent funding efforts.
In fact, starting with Cordain's book, and continuing to weigh more and more acquired information against my observations of the world around me and my own personal experience with diet, my entire world view has changed 180 degrees.
This isn't to say I've become neurotic about what I put in my mouth by any means, but certainly more mindful. I still have a Big Mac on occasion, eat out regularly without stress, and have the odd treat at home. However, I have changed the fundamental structure of my diet and removed most of the regular staples belonging to SAD.
If you're interested in learning more about this fascinating subject that most of us take for granted here at the top of the food chain, start reading:
The Paleo Diet
The Paleo Diet for Athletes
The Primal Blue Print
Nourishing Traditions: The Cookbook that Challenges Politically Correct Nutrition and the Diet Dictocrats
Food INC
The Vegetarian Myth
I enjoyed all these very much, its a good start, and if you start reading you might see why I brought a discussion about food into a topic about muscle soreness. |
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Prince Rupert, British Columbia
Canada
115 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2011 : 01:36 AM
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So in brief: Better food, better stretches and regular exercise.
I didn't read everything, but can you guys tell me who pisses the furthest ? :) |
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65 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2011 : 05:45 AM
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RE: pissing contest
Since it seems we are all big on advice I might as well weigh in once more. Don't piss into the wind. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1461 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2011 : 1:09 PM
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Summit Seeker: We probably have pretty similar diets. When I say paleo doesn't work for me I'm talking about the strict version. My intake of the Paleo forbidden foods is relatively small and I didn't experience a big difference in how I felt between the two other than the frustration of not being able to eat a lot of foods that I enjoy. I do notice if I've been ODing on wheat and sugar.
I also don't think that Paleo is the only healthy diet and strongly believe that it is possible to be a healthy vegetarian which is precluded from Paleo. There is a lot of interesting research coming out in nutrition but it is hardly as conclusive as a lot of Paleo adherents make it out to be. I also don't think that Paleo is very sustainable from a global perspective. |
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3022 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2011 : 01:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hafilax
Summit Seeker: We probably have pretty similar diets. When I say paleo doesn't work for me I'm talking about the strict version. My intake of the Paleo forbidden foods is relatively small and I didn't experience a big difference in how I felt between the two other than the frustration of not being able to eat a lot of foods that I enjoy. I do notice if I've been ODing on wheat and sugar.
Diet is an interesting thing about Human Cultures .
It defines what many of us are , and is used by researchers studying our pasts, and trends of future agriculture.
I love this part of the world for the seasonal varieties of berries between may and november.
Some people question the value of berries , and even funguses.
I like em all , think they all have something for the body.
The other day I demonstrated to my girls how easy it is catch a flying termite and sample it, like "shrimp on the wing " .
Honestly folks , they taste like flavoured butter . Probably good for us , but that is a last ditch attempt at nutrition in-a-pinch . Just a demo for the young.
Some eat to live , others live to eat.
{ what happened to the thread ... from stretches to muscle-flexing to paleo diet to food-culture & insectivorism } |
Edited by - cambium on 09/11/2011 01:46 AM |
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Kootenay Bud
2695 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2011 : 10:01 AM
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| SummitSeeker: Let the carbo crashing junkies keep on crashin' There's so much established dogma about diet out there it is going to take a lot to convince people that the standard carbo load diet is likely not the best. |
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Stretching is for kids? :)
