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Vancouver, bc
Canada
152 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2011 : 9:36 PM
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About 6 years ago I attended a new years party and the home owner turned out to be a real outdoorsy guy. We got talking and one thing let to another and he took me downstairs to his basement where he kept all his stuff. The place was packed with equipment, and many of them high end stuff. I said you must be pretty wealthy to spend all this coin on this stuff, but he said quite the contrary, he always worked around a budget and would only buy the best and worst of something. I asked him to explain which he did. He said if you always buy the mid range of anything, you end up with nothing. You end up with stuff that is neither here nor there. You don't enjoy it and always feel like you wasted your money.
So I looked around his place and lo and behold everything was at the opposite end of the spectrum. He had 850 down western mountaineering down sleeping bag, and he also had canadian tire coleman sleeping bag. He had a 1000 dollar tent, and a good but 150 dollar tent. and on and on.
It made me think and when I got home I looked at everything I owned. I realized I wasn't happy with my stuff. i had paid good money for everything, and really they were not bad but not great.
So over the last 5 years, i've tried either buying something cheap and treating it cheap and not worrying about it, or saving up and buying the best and absolutely loving it.
For Example:
I have a Goretex Pro Shell jacket. paid 650 for it and love it.
I also own less expensive 100 dollar MEC and Taiga jackets.
But I did not go for Goretex Paclite or Goretex Performance Shell, which bridges the gap between the two extremes. And I am very happy about it.
I have a 140 dollar point and shoot digital camera, but I also have a 5400 dollar Canon 1ds DSLR. The king of all cameras. Ive skipped all the cameras in between and have run into a ton of people who have short comings with their 1000 or 2000 or 3000 dollar camera.
I have an 850 down sleeping bag, and a couple of lesser bags.
I have a snowshoe from costco that is ok at 49.99 and MSR Lighting Ascent at 299.99 that is awesome.
The list goes on. My point is you can actually save a lot of money by buying the right thing and not half assing it (sorry for the language).
My own sister learnt this the hard way. She had a hard time spending 400 dollars on an Arcteryx backpack that felt amazing and super comfortable on her. She even liked the colour. Fair enough so I told her to either buy this or buy something cheap (less than a 100). Don't go half way and regret it. Well she bought a MEC backpack for 220. It was horrible and sold it on craigslist for 140. Than bought a Mountain Hardwear bag for 280 it fell apart and sold it for 150. Then she quit hiking all together. Last Christmas i bought her the Arcterix Bag and a cheaper Kelty bag both 65 liters. Now she is super happy and was out hiking again this summer. The expensive one makes her feel good and comfortable, and the cheaper one makes her happy because there is a lot of value in it.
As I said, I have been doing this for the past 5 years and not only am I happy with everything I have, I have also saved a lot of money. I either don't buy, or buy it right. And it has worked! |
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 Terminator shade wearing, summit questing, double Grinding, Gordo voting self annointed 'dumb ass' and Aconcagua Bagga who dreams of Robson, Teton, The Judge, and.....and....
Port Moody, B.C
Canada
2210 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2011 : 9:59 PM
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Most of my stuff is middle of the road but I am happy with it. I don't worry about the fact I blew the whole load on my equipment, but at the same time it's not cheap either so I don't feel like I am ever getting let down when I do use it.
However for a $5,000 camera guy all my gear will probably come in as being considered cheap though.
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Vancouver, bc
Canada
152 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2011 : 10:03 PM
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Jeff trust me, Im in no way rich or anything. The dozen or so people that know me on CT will vouch for that.
i bought the camera after saving and saving.
Anyways, These type of cameras don't depreciate, you buy them at 5000 and sell them after 2 years at 4. (Its like buying a 1000 dollar camera and selling it for 300 after 2 years.)
But the 2 years you have it brings a smile to your face everytime you use it.
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Edited by - Matin on 08/28/2011 10:04 PM |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2011 : 10:07 PM
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I think the extreme is not always logical for people
(your MHW bag fell apart? Surely that should be warranty - their stuff is usually quite good).
Not everyone can afford the top end, but might still get some value from mid-range over bottom end.
Looking at sleeping bags, for example, a canadian tire bag is completely useless for backpacking. A Western Mountaineering bag is awesome, but a MEC Hybrid is still a great bag for someone who doesn't go out enough to warrant massive spendings, and a MEC Merlin will still be a noticeable step up.
When I shop for gear, I identify how much I will be using the item, and what I consider 'must-haves' and 'nice-to-haves'. Then I tend to look at the price range of things that have everything I require, and see what kind of 'nice' additions I can get for a reasonable price.
For people just starting out, going a little above the base can add a few nice features without taking the price range astronomical for something they might not stick with.
I bought an Asolo 60L when I started. It was not the very bottom end, but not far up. It did the trick, but had nothing fancy. I recently replaced it with an Osprey bag that fits me perfectly, which is spectacular. But I know a few people who have a MEC Ibex and have been happily using it for years without feeling it worthwhile to pay more for a bit extra.
I find that with most gear, the law of diminishing returns applies to money spent. When you spend $200, you get a LOT more than if you spend $100. If you spend $300, you get a good bit more than $200. If you spend $500, you get a little more than $300. And the higher you go, the more extra money you are paying for less extra use (and brand logos don't count as extra value).
Different people top out at different levels of worthwhile. |
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Vancouver, bc
Canada
152 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2011 : 10:18 PM
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Rachelo I know what you are saying and it seems logical and that is how I used to think, but really its been proven to me countless times to either go all in or not at all.
Just yesterday I bought PC brand Pizza at Superstore. I saw the brand name right next to it at 2 dollars more and the no name brand next to it at 3 bucks less. I went against everything I've taught myself and bought the PC brand, and it was not a good pizza. Would the No Name Yellow box pizza at 2.50 be any better? no it wont. But I would throw it in the oven and have it with a beer and be fine with it than complaining about a 5.60 PC brand pizza that was bare and had no taste.
The best scenario is to buy the best there is but on sale. Get that Goretex pro shell jacket but on sale. Get that multi fuel expedition stove but on sale. Get that top end sleeping bag, but on sale.
And that is what i do. I research something, lock in on it, and wait till it gets more affordable. |
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Terminator shade wearing, summit questing, double Grinding, Gordo voting self annointed 'dumb ass' and Aconcagua Bagga who dreams of Robson, Teton, The Judge, and.....and....
Port Moody, B.C
Canada
2210 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2011 : 10:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Matin
Jeff trust me, Im in no way rich or anything. The dozen or so people that know me on CT will vouch for that.
i bought the camera after saving and saving.
Anyways, These type of cameras don't depreciate, you buy them at 5000 and sell them after 2 years at 4. (Its like buying a 1000 dollar camera and selling it for 300 after 2 years.)
But the 2 years you have it brings a smile to your face everytime you use it.
Sounds like a smart move then, my D90 package is probably only worth half the $1,000 I paid for it a year ago, but thats ok since I love the pictures I am getting.
Now lets see some pictures from that camera.
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rockies, alberta
Canada
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2011 : 06:20 AM
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very interesting Matin.. working in retail I see this often, the low end purchases by people that expect to use the piece often will be back for the the high end piece I showed them for comparison. I sometimes wonder if there is a sub-conscience expectation that the high end piece is better because there are more bells and whistles. Then there are those who do use the piece as it was intended from design, both the low end as well as the high end piece.
Very interesting conversation though. I dislike shopping so I prefer to buy once but often it will be an impulse purchase! (which I do occasionally live to regret!) |
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2011 : 07:36 AM
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I always look for specific features, rather than brand names or prices. If two similar items both have the features I want, I'll pick the cheapest one. That's worked well for me, but who knows? Maybe I just don't know what I'm missing by not buying top-of-the line.
One lesson I learned very early on, though, is that there are a lot of people who make the assumption, as Mtnlioness says, that more expensive is always better. From what I've seen, they are the same ones who go out and blow a couple of thousand dollars on hiking gear just when they're starting out, and expect that to somehow magically make their experience a joyful one. A lot of companies take advantage of that, and sell the best (and most expensive)equipment to newbies who often don't use it more than a few times before they move on.
I'm always amazed at the people who go to Jasper and blow a lot of money on Jack Wolfskin or MSR gear when they only plan to use it for their one week-long vacation trip to the Rockies.
When people are just starting out, I usually suggest that they buy decent but cheap gear. Inexpensive boots from Canadian Tire or Mark's work just fine as long as they're comfortable, and a daypack from Walmart or Goodwill will hold everything they'll need for a dayhike. A dollar-store poncho keeps you just as dry if it rains as a hundred dollar rain suit or $600 Patagonia Gore-Tex.
Once they've done a few hikes, many of them will decide they're not really interested in doing it anyway. But those who stick with it will figure out what isn't working for them in the gear they have, and get a better idea of what features they really want. They'll start to compare similar products, and they'll be working with some concrete experience of what works for them and what doesn't.
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Burnaby, BC
Canada
1293 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2011 : 08:04 AM
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I gotta admit the first thing I did when I read your post is click your name and see whether you were married or not.
You must be, um, persuasive  . |
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opinionated-stove huggin'-fleece wearin'-arse burnin' hill virgin
Here
Canada
4642 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2011 : 08:12 AM
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| I started out with cheap department store grade gear and regretted it. It was either bulky, heavy, fragile or all of the above. Playing the upgrade game actually cost me more than buying better quality gear in the first place. |
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2011 : 08:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tu
I gotta admit the first thing I did when I read your post is click your name and see whether you were married or not.
You must be, um, persuasive .
So you're a stalker? Matin may not be interested in marriage. |
Edited by - peter1955 on 08/29/2011 08:38 AM |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2011 : 08:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by peter1955
quote:
Originally posted by tu
I gotta admit the first thing I did when I read your post is click your name and see whether you were married or not.
You must be, um, persuasive .
So you're a stalker? Matin may not be interested in marriage.
I suspect tu meant to see whether he had all his disposable income to himself, or had to convince someone else of the worth of a $5000 camera. Since he is married, I think the reference is to his persuasive skills to be able to spend that money on gear. I've heard a few people on this forum referencing the need to convince the wife of the new gear. |
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Not too far from Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2011 : 08:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hiker Boy
I started out with cheap department store grade gear and regretted it. It was either bulky, heavy, fragile or all of the above. Playing the upgrade game actually cost me more than buying better quality gear in the first place.
I'm still a newbie and although I'm not buying absolute "top of the line" gear, I agree that it's a waste of money to buy a bunch of department store grade gear that doesn't fit properly and is probably going to crater on a person halfway into their first or second hike. A close friend of mine made this mistake, and he is now spending a bunch of money to upgrade his gear only a few months after purchasing the original Canadian Tire/Wal-Mart stuff.
That being said: I will probably never go "all-out" and buy all top-of-the-line gear, although I suspect that I will eventually choose which items are the most important to me and invest more money in them at some point. For now, though, I'm quite happy with my middle-of-the-road stuff |
Edited by - Hiking Solo on 08/29/2011 08:26 AM |
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Burnaby, BC
Canada
1293 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2011 : 08:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by peter1955
quote:
Originally posted by tu
I gotta admit the first thing I did when I read your post is click your name and see whether you were married or not.
You must be, um, persuasive .
So you're a stalker? Matin may not be interested in marriage.
Well, I always feel kinda bad and guilty when asking the wife about spending cash on stuff for what is, basically, my recreational hobby. She's pretty ok with it, which makes me feel kinda worse.
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2011 : 08:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Matin
Rachelo I know what you are saying and it seems logical and that is how I used to think, but really its been proven to me countless times to either go all in or not at all.
The best scenario is to buy the best there is but on sale. Get that Goretex pro shell jacket but on sale. Get that multi fuel expedition stove but on sale. Get that top end sleeping bag, but on sale.
And that is what i do. I research something, lock in on it, and wait till it gets more affordable.
I'm going to ignore the pizza part, because I am not convinced that food is a reasonable comparison.
I do believe that if you do enough of it, it's worth paying for the good stuff. But I don't think that always holds true for everyone.
For example, why buy the multi-fuel expedition stove? I don't hike internationally. I expect to do all my hiking, at least for a good long time, in places where it's plenty easy to get naptha - so that's not a worthwhile expense for me.
When I was starting to buy my own stuff, I was a student living off a part-time job. It would have taken me about 3 years (of buying no other gear) to save up to buy a WM sleeping bag. Instead, I bought a MEC Hybrid which was warm, cozy, but larger-packing, and heavier. I've happily backpacked with that bag for many years now. I'm glad I got it over a cheaper Asolo synthetic or something, but I didn't need anything hight to just get out and enjoy myself.
When my husband needed a replacement bag two years ago, we got him a MEC Merlin. This year, I got a WM Ultralite. My bag cost (retail) about an extra $150 (though I did get a deal that brought it down some) for really, minimal extra. It's a fair amount of money for a *slight* reduction in size and weight that I bet most people wouldn't even notice. I decided it was worth it for me, but I'd strongly recommend the Merlin to a lot of people.
For those who aren't out as often, it really doesn't make sense to spend the money. For $20, you can get a backpack that will uncomfortably carry your stuff. For $200, you can get a backpack that hugs your hips and shoulders and feels great to carry around. But for an occasional hiker who has other priorities, it's probably not worth spending $200. For $60, you can get a good pack that fits comfortably, and carries well, and until you own the $200 one, you'll probably never even know there is something you're missing. |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2011 : 08:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hiker Boy
I started out with cheap department store grade gear and regretted it. It was either bulky, heavy, fragile or all of the above. Playing the upgrade game actually cost me more than buying better quality gear in the first place.
I think it depends on what you're doing, and how likely you are to stick with it. It costs a lot to buy a $60 pack and then a $200 pack rather than going right to the good one. But it costs a lot more to buy the $200 pack and then decide you don't even like hiking.
I think when you know you're going to stick with it, it's worth going right into buying the good stuff you'll want to keep around. But when you're trying something out, it's often better to start with the minimum in sunk costs.
I really urge people to rent things when they are starting out. It costs extra to sink some rentals at the beginning, but you come out with a good idea as to what is important in the gear to you, and are more likely to then buy the item you'll want to have around for a long time. I started with cheaper packs to get going, but rented tents and stoves and snowshoes for a bit, then saved up and bought exactly what I'd want to use for a long time in the first place.
quote:
Originally posted by mtnlioness
very interesting Matin.. working in retail I see this often, the low end purchases by people that expect to use the piece often will be back for the the high end piece I showed them for comparison. I sometimes wonder if there is a sub-conscience expectation that the high end piece is better because there are more bells and whistles. Then there are those who do use the piece as it was intended from design, both the low end as well as the high end piece.
Very interesting conversation though. I dislike shopping so I prefer to buy once but often it will be an impulse purchase! (which I do occasionally live to regret!)
Definitely on the more expensive does not always equal better. I've seen people walk in and just go to whatever costs the most, regadless of whether it is what they actually need. "I need hiking boots! These $700 ones must be the best!" <you really really don't want to buy mountaineering boots for a couple dayhikes...>
It works with wine - the more expensive the bottle, the better people think it tastes - I suspect there is some of that with gear as well. You are more likely to think it better when it costs, and you have motivation to be convinced that it is better since you paid so much. |
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2011 : 08:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tu
quote:
Originally posted by peter1955
quote:
Originally posted by tu
I gotta admit the first thing I did when I read your post is click your name and see whether you were married or not.
You must be, um, persuasive .
So you're a stalker? Matin may not be interested in marriage.
Well, I always feel kinda bad and guilty when asking the wife about spending cash on stuff for what is, basically, my recreational hobby. She's pretty ok with it, which makes me feel kinda worse.
I make some extra money teaching fitness classes, and that's what I use to pay for my hiking. My wife is fine with it as long as it doesn't cut into her household budget. |
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Not too far from Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2011 : 09:03 AM
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I definitely agree with the suggestion about renting, especially since it allows a person to try out several different brands of products; however, I want to point out that renting is not an option for everyone since not everyone lives close to a store that rents gear. For example, I live over an hour away from the closest place that rents gear (and many people live even farther away than that), so it made more sense for me to buy my items - many of which were purchased online (free shipping on orders over $50!!  ) and/or when they were on sale - instead of constantly driving back and forth to pick up gear and then return the gear.
Also, it is pretty easy to sell unwanted gear nowadays, especially with places like Ebay, Kijiji, MEC, CT, etc. As such, for those who buy the gear and decide that they don't like hiking, they can still get a decent portion of their money back by selling their gear online. For me, it would end up being cheaper than spending the money to pay for multiple round-trip gas costs and rental fees, especially since I tend to try an activity out at least a few times before I decide that I don't like it (which I would hazard to guess holds true for a lot of people).
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Edited by - Hiking Solo on 08/29/2011 09:38 AM |
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North Vancouver, BC
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2011 : 09:16 AM
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Most of my stuff is upper middle of the road.
Nothing is the best but i dont have any entry level gear. What defines top of the line is also up for debate i guess. I tend to buy expensive items slightly used.
I always look at the oportunity cost of premium pieces of gear.
If i get a new mountain bike at 5g vs the same bike used at 2.5g then thats a full ski touring set up i cant have.
When you Ski, Hike, Run, Mountain Bike, Road Bike, Rock climb it just doesnt make sense to get that shiney bling piece at the cost of getting soemthing else you "need"
I have always found you pay way too high a premium to have the "Best" way better value at 2nd best.. |
Edited by - TylerD on 08/29/2011 09:18 AM |
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2011 : 10:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
It works with wine - the more expensive the bottle, the better people think it tastes - I suspect there is some of that with gear as well. You are more likely to think it better when it costs, and you have motivation to be convinced that it is better since you paid so much.
LOL. A common syndrome, it seems.
And "Because I bought it, and spent a lot of money on it, it must be the best possible choice." |
Edited by - peter1955 on 08/29/2011 10:20 AM |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2011 : 10:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by TylerD
I always look at the oportunity cost of premium pieces of gear.
If i get a new mountain bike at 5g vs the same bike used at 2.5g then thats a full ski touring set up i cant have.
When you Ski, Hike, Run, Mountain Bike, Road Bike, Rock climb it just doesnt make sense to get that shiney bling piece at the cost of getting soemthing else you "need"
Exactly. Even allocating time is a problem between enough sports. for a bit, I felt that I wasn't getting enough time to do anything, so I had to consciously choose priorities, and spend more time and money there - accepting lower-end gear and less time on my lesser priorities. |
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How do you shop? Middle of the road or extremes?
