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 canine loving, machete-toting bushwhacking lake seeker, Indiana Jones hat-wearing off-road 4x4 guru
Surrey Hole, BC
Canada
6768 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 10:11 PM
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That vid shows how fast things happen, and how one needs to react. Seconds.. Most CT'ers could never draw and discharge like that, plus we cant use handguns. Rifles are slower and more difficult and obviously much heavier.
One would need the firearm handy and ready, safety off.
I like to have one chambered, safety off and have 6 in the mag, this would be rare and not recomended, only if in doubt and knowing you will have conflict. Again extremely rare, especially in the lower mainland.
Would spray have made the Mom back off in the vid? would she have tried a second or third time? who knows..
Yes the guys were too close and slow and she waited for a good charge, they were lucky. Even one swipe can seriously cause you to wish you were dead, as injuries can be be frigthening and not survivable when remote.
And that is another argument, a close physical encounter with a bear may not kill you, but the injuries suffered in many cases may not let you make it out to seek help.
Gyppo
Having defense, does not mean you need to make a kill. Most guns have a reasonable mag, and can carry several rounds. One could "waste" one or two rounds as warnings, and still have plenty in case of problems.
Caliber and gun selection is important, some people feel safe because they carry a .22 around. looks like a gun, but it barely takes out small game.
For serious defense a pump 12 gauge with slugs or a high caliber rifle with proper big game rounds is needed. Around camp and easy hikes the 10 pounds is not an issue, however when in backcountry and tough terrain, the weapon can quickly become bothersome.
Packing does make me feel safer in some locations. I may carry 2-3 times a year only.
A weapon is only as good as the user, weapon skills make the diff, you need to be fast and confident and safe.
Similar to a climber, just because one carries all the gear, does not make them a safe and competent peakbagger. Its alot of practiced skill in many situations, over many seasons. |
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Vancouver, B.C.
Canada
82 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 10:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by calmcoldmorning
realistically, the gun would have to be loaded to be effective in the time allowance for an aggresive bear.
And for the gun to be loaded, you would have to rely on the safety.
And then, the chances are better for you to hurt yourself than for the protection that it would provide.
Well maybe if you use an old Elmer Fudd style break-action 12gauge, then yeah, your one mistep away from accidently shooting yourself in the face. But I can't imagine not using a pump action shotgun if the intended usuage is to defend yourself from bears. In which case you will be able to have several rounds loaded at all times, but not chambered. Or you could do what Aqua Terra claims to do which is to chamber the round anyway, but even he admits thats a bad idea.
IMHO firearms have their uses in hiking/outdoor activities outside of the realm of hunting, but they need to be used in appropriate situations.
If I were to take a shotgun hiking with me on the north shore I would be more likely to shot by the police at the trailhead than eaten by a bear. On the otherhand going on a multiday trek in the high arctic during the summer without a firearm is a lot like going up Rainer in May without an ice axe.
The OP implied that the only people who would take offense to carrying a firearm are a bunch of 'stoner hippies' (I'm paraphrasing). But hey, I am one of those hippies, and yet there are places in the world I simply wouldn't go adventuring without a firearm. However, firearms are so unneccesary in south-west BC that you will see me carrying one, never. |
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North Vancouver, BC
Canada
1602 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 10:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wildtrekker
hahaha
Well than I'll look out.
Who usually makes alot of noise in the brush? When you're on a hike with a few people, do you actually make that Extra racket to scare away/warn anything in front of you?
Yep. Especially if near a river, it is windy, there are signs of animal activity, it is dawn or dusk, etc. My noise will vary from whistling to a horrible rendition of some Bob Marley songs (that's more of a solo hiking thing...) to talking very loudly (basically yelling) to yelling "Echo" as loud as I can.
I could imagine wanting a gun in particular situations; especially if my job required me to work in grizzly bear territory for long periods of time, if I was on an extended solo trip deep in grizzly bear territory or if I was responsible for a group.
If you read some of the reports of bear attacks, there are a surprising number of hunters (who are presumably carrying guns) that are killed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America
Making noise, keeping a clean camp, traveling in groups, keeping your eyes and nose open for any carcasses (avoid at all costs; even if it means aborting the trip,) and avoiding known bear hot spots are all probably more important than gun vs spray. |
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348 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 12:40 AM
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Posted by PostHole quote:
the OP implied that the only people who would take offense to carrying a firearm are a bunch of 'stoner hippies' (I'm paraphrasing). But hey, I am one of those hippies, and yet there are places in the world I simply wouldn't go adventuring without a firearm. However, firearms are so unneccesary in south-west BC that you will see me carrying one, never.
Sure there are some people that don't support violence, or guns, And I do assume most hippies don't like killing cute scruffy brown bears for the sake of their own life. I just want to clarify I live in Alberta, with a less dense population than South Western BC. I keep it packed up when I'm around people at the Trailhead( in repect for the people around me) , but usually venture off the beaten path anyways.
Posted by Steventy quote:
If you read some of the reports of bear attacks, there are a surprising number of hunters (who are presumably carrying guns) that are killed.
It is true alot of hunters ARE killed by wild animals, even with guns. I find it more as an ADAVANTAGE over your bare hands. Persay the...upper hand in a potentially dangerous situation.
Yeah I love guns and can function Without one, but I don't wanna be bear bait and have nothing to give when the going gets rough. |
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North Vancouver, BC
Canada
1262 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 06:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wildtrekker
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Yeah I love guns and can function Without one, but I don't wanna be bear bait and have nothing to give when the going gets rough.
It's a win win situation , the bear gets a good meal and you get a fur coat. |
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 07:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wildtrekker
Who usually makes alot of noise in the brush? When you're on a hike with a few people, do you actually make that Extra racket to scare away/warn anything in front of you?
You've never hiked with me. I piss off hunters and people who are looking for a gentle nature walk because I make a lot of noise and scare away the game. Unlike you, one of the people I learned from was a woman who was one of the orignal Death Racers, and who has hiked every mountain near Grande Cache ('Grizzly Capital of Canada') and most of the others in the Rockies. She hoots and hollers, in dense bush, near water and everywhere in between. I do, too, and the only bears I've seen have been leaving the area.
Your lack of both knowledge and experience is showing through.
And the juvenile name-calling is getting a bit tired. 'Yo mutha', indeed! |
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red deer, alberta
Canada
168 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 10:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Posthole
But I can't imagine not using a pump action shotgun if the intended usuage is to defend yourself from bears. In which case you will be able to have several rounds loaded at all times, but not chambered.
all is fine with a pump unchambered shell shotgun, while a bear is munching on grass 200 yards fom you. When a bear is about to bluff charge you, to get ready and set when your already scared i think its asking a little much to chamber a round. Add that to the fact, where ive had alot of pumps jam under great conditions.
Didnt a grizzly bear get shot in K-country this year or last. Hiker brought in a high power and shot a grizzly at 200 yards away from camp. no other reason than he was scared.
heres the link...
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=7dd150de-1528-400d-82ee-fc337697a797
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3 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 10:44 AM
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I'm actually rather hesitant to comment on this topic given the large amount of uneducated, hateful trolls that seem to be posting in this thread. Some of you need to learn how to act like an adult.
First off, I consider myself part hippy/part hunter and full-time outdoorsman. So I'm often torn between these types of discussions. But the fact of the matter is stats that compare bear spray use to the use of firearms are at best misleading and at worst pure propaganda. What the stats are really comparing is bear spray to the use of long-arms...and anyone familiar with long-arms knows how difficult it is to wield your gun around given its size...especially if you're in a tent. Long arms are only effective as defense if they're loaded and already drawn. I can promise you that if we, in Alberta, were allowed to carry a revolver in a magnum calibre in the bush (such as trappers in BC are allowed to) then those stats would be much different. A handgun is far more effective bear protection than a rifle and FAR, FAR more effective than bear sprays. Sprays are for bugs and mosquitoes...not bears.
Have you ever seen two grizzlies fight each other before? They're tearing huge chunks of flesh off each other, bleeding like hell and yet they still remain undeterred. Do you really think that spraying some kind of food spice in a bears face would really do you any good in that type of situation?
Bear bangers are garbage against a charging bear. The bangers will shoot dozens of feet beyond the bear before they explode, thusly, scaring the bear towards you and not away from you. Bangers are only good if you see a bear a hundred feet off and wish to scare it off even further.
All that being said, I do carry bear spray when I go hiking but I have my doubts as to how effective it actually is. But when I go backpacking deep into the bush I always carry a firearm. |
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Jasper, ab
Canada
1028 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 10:49 AM
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| So I am curious as to what you gun carrying hikers would do in a situation where you shot and wounded a bear that you perceived a threat and it ran off. Would you run away thanking your lucky stars that you survived? Would you go after it to finish it off, possibly following it into deep bush? Would you report the incident to fish and wildlife? Because we now have a bear that may just have been curious, maybe just trying to scare you off, now we have an angry, hurt and scary bear out there who may be a real danger to other, non armed hikers and outdoor enthusiasts. But you got out safe, so I guess that's all that counts |
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 12:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kerouac
Do you really think that spraying some kind of food spice in a bears face would really do you any good in that type of situation?
So we can assume you've never actually come into contact with bear spray. 'Food spice' it ain't! Here's a suggestion; if you think it's so mild, give your dog a squirt and see what happens. Or your wife. 
The stats on guns vs. bear spray are based on the number of bear attacks that were successful vs. the number that were repelled. According to Parks Canada, bear spray worked in at least 90% of reported cases where a bear charged a person, chasing the bear away. In some cases where it didn't work as well, the can was discharged too early and didn't reach its target. Unless you can be absolutely sure of instantly killing a bear charging through the bush at 60 km/hr with one shot, your chances with a gun of any kind are nowhere close to that figure.
And Lobo's right, of course. I knew a man who had a bow-hunting license for grizzlies; if and when he wounded a bear he had to follow it until he caught it and finished it off, just to protect everyone else. Sometimes it took him a week or two.
The best solution is to never have a bear encounter, wouldn't you agree? We ran into a sow with two cubs last year coming up towards Opal Peak. As any mother would, when she heard our voices her instinct was to protect her cubs, and the best way for her to do that was to take them out of harm's way. They left and avoided any potential confrontation.
Fact: two well-armed hunters at Grande Cache last year were walking down a trail when they suddenly spotted two cubs in the bush ahead of them. Before they could do anything at all, the mama charged them from behind, knocked them to the ground, batted them around a few times to make sure they're weren't a threat, then took her cubs and left. They survived but never had a chance to fire their weapons.
They could have easily avoided the encounter by making noise - she would have heard them coming and gone somewhere else. That would have scared away the hunters' game, but they wouldn't have got mauled, would they?
I'll carry bear spray as a precaution, but I don't expect to have to use it. If I was so afraid of bears that I felt I had to carry a gun to reassure myself, I'd probably just stay hiding back in town.
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Edited by - peter1955 on 03/03/2011 12:18 PM |
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Vancouver, B.C.
Canada
82 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 12:45 PM
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Just to add this to this thread because it hasn't been mentioned; hunters get attacked by bears often because hunters keep carcasses in their camps. One time I went goat hunting in grizzly country with my dad (who really should know better) and after shooting a goat and getting down from the alpine he proceeded to hang the carcass from a pine tree next to his tent and then took a nap. When I asked him if this was a good idea (I was 15 at the time), he said, "Oh it doesn't matter because we have guns."
I think this cavalier human supremicist attitude which seems to be common among hunters (sometimes only when they are hunting) leads them to ignore all common sense and actually leads to more aggressive bear encounters.
I've never heard of someone backpacking around without a firearm and setting up camp next to deer corpse in bear country and saying, "oh it doesn't matter because I have a can of pepper spray and a whistle."
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Edited by - Posthole on 03/03/2011 12:46 PM |
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348 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 3:30 PM
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quote:
I'll carry bear spray as a precaution, but I don't expect to have to use it. If I was so afraid of bears that I felt I had to carry a gun to reassure myself, I'd probably just stay hiding back in town.
Well, you can stay hiding in town. I'll be bushwacking. |
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North Vancouver, BC
Canada
1602 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 4:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kerouac
Bear bangers are garbage against a charging bear. The bangers will shoot dozens of feet beyond the bear before they explode, thusly, scaring the bear towards you and not away from you. Bangers are only good if you see a bear a hundred feet off and wish to scare it off even further.
You're doing it wrong. Don't aim the banger at the bear. If a bear is charging, your hands should be on your spray anyway.
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Edited by - Steventy on 03/03/2011 4:00 PM |
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348 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 7:11 PM
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quote:
You're doing it wrong. Don't aim the banger at the bear. If a bear is charging, your hands should be on your spray anyway.
So should you fire off the bear banger when you see the bear, or before you see the bear, or when it's charging you? Not to mention you won't know exactly if the banger will explode in front or behind the bear.
My bear bangers are packed up in a little case with my flares. In a little pouch, I mostly rely on my packacge for flares but to see a bear, get the pack out of my bag, open it, screw in the banger in the launcher, point and aim and release with my thumb seems to take too much time. |
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red deer, alberta
Canada
168 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 7:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Posthole
I think this cavalier human supremicist attitude which seems to be common among hunters (sometimes only when they are hunting) leads them to ignore all common sense and actually leads to more aggressive bear encounters.
A loaded rifle does make for supremecy over the bear. Because now a hunter can kill the bear quicker than the bear can kill the human.
To me, the bear spray does two things:
1. it gives you confidence to stand up and face the bear. which is a huge plus cuz it shows the bear you will fight, so the bear's confidence is shaken.
2. if the bear gets sprayed, it should shock him enough that the bear would say "WTF was that?" and retreat.
Sure if the bear thinks its cubs are in danger, it might just be in a blind rage and the spray have no effect. But in that case, after you get knocked down and the bear sees your not a threat, it should leave.
thats the way i see but i still have to read Herroro's book on it. But i see many skunks happily prancing around and they dont seem have too many worries with only a stink spray as a defence. |
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Van, BC
Canada
2780 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 7:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wildtrekker
quote:
You're doing it wrong. Don't aim the banger at the bear. If a bear is charging, your hands should be on your spray anyway.
So should you fire off the bear banger when you see the bear, or before you see the bear, or when it's charging you? Not to mention you won't know exactly if the banger will explode in front or behind the bear.
My bear bangers are packed up in a little case with my flares. In a little pouch, I mostly rely on my packacge for flares but to see a bear, get the pack out of my bag, open it, screw in the banger in the launcher, point and aim and release with my thumb seems to take too much time.
I've used bear bangers for "real" (i.e. not just a test fire) twice now. As mentioned above, you are not supposed to fire them in the direction of the bear - you fire them straight up. As I understand it, they should be used when the bear is still far away from you and figuring out what you are and what it should do.
First use was when the black bear, that was pretty close to me and did not care AT ALL what I was doing. The bear bangers didn't do anything.
http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30671
Second use was when we were at the bottom of a bowl and the bear (with cub) was way up above us and only somewhat close to where we wanted to go. That time, the banger got them moving damn quickly:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/realaworld/5047096659/in/set-72157625086830632/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/realaworld/5047103951/in/set-72157625086830632/ |
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canine loving, machete-toting bushwhacking lake seeker, Indiana Jones hat-wearing off-road 4x4 guru
Surrey Hole, BC
Canada
6768 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 8:10 PM
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| was that the time you had "company" at Salal? |
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 11:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wildtrekker
quote:
I'll carry bear spray as a precaution, but I don't expect to have to use it. If I was so afraid of bears that I felt I had to carry a gun to reassure myself, I'd probably just stay hiding back in town.
Well, you can stay hiding in town. I'll be bushwacking.
Pay attention, kid. I said people with guns should hide in town if they're that afraid. I've hiked all through the Rockies without one and I've never had a problem. |
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Washington, DC
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 12:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Steventy
If you read some of the reports of bear attacks, there are a surprising number of hunters (who are presumably carrying guns) that are killed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America
Thanks for linking to this article- I've spent a lot of time collecting references and compiling the entries. Does anyone know if I'm missing any? I emailed Steve Herrero, and he says a journal is coming out next month that may be able to give me more.
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3 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 08:03 AM
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I thought it would be interesting, as an aside, to point out how many uneducated hypocrites there are posting in this thread regarding weapons. I'm referring to the kids that think carrying a gun makes you afraid of something...which is pure nonsense. I wear boots when I go hiking...does that make me afraid of dirt? I wear a jacket in the winter...does that make me afraid of snow? Now I realize that those comments that I'm referring to regarding being afraid were made by simpletons and trolls but I thought I'd take the bait and have some fun with it.
Both bear spray AND firearms are weapons. Whats makes one person "afraid" if he carries one and not afraid if he carries the other? I'll answer the question for you, ignorance and a complete lack of education in the matter aforementioned. Either that or you're directly related to Michael Ignatieff. |
Edited by - Kerouac on 03/05/2011 08:04 AM |
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Packing Heat on the Trail
