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north van, bc
Canada
940 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2010 : 11:06 PM
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I did a bunch of snowshoeing last year and now want to get into backcountry skiing this winter. I resort skied and snowboarded as a kid but it's been a while now.
I won't be doing anything crazy, looking for big slopes etc. but would want to do some trail touring (elfin etc) and probably hit up seymour since it's close. skinning to first pump and skiing down. maybe a couple of resort days at whistler if I can do it on the same setup.
I'm about 5'10" 170lbs naked. so around 200 with day pack and 220 with overnight pack. so have no idea what to use for ski lengths. I'm guessing in the 180cm neighborhood?
the widths seem to vary quite a bit as well as the curve (tip, middle, tail). and all means nothing to me. what would be a decent width for trail touring and easy downhill stuff?
the dynafit bindings seem to get good reviews. is that a good way to go? (Dynafit TLT Vertical ST ) ?
any comments on boots?
thanks |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3505 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 12:13 AM
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Well, you might get an onslaught of opinions, but here's my $0.02...
If you want a versatile ski, think about something like G3's Tonic. It can handle resorts with ease, including groomers. It has enough girth (100uf) to ski powder nicely, and has an early rise tip. It's heavier than some others (DynaFit Stoke or Black Diamond Drift) but that weight has some skiing advantages if you don't mind the extra effort going up.
For bindings, well, it depends. I like my Vertical ST's, but enjoyed my previous Freerides, too. The Dynafits ski nicely and tour great, but transitions take time to get used to. Freerides are familiar to alpine skiers.
Boots? Go for fit, first and foremost. As for boot type, you'll have to decide what kind of skiing you're going to do in them. My soft Garmonts work well for ski mountaineering and touring as they're comfy, but some find them too flexible for aggressive skiing. That said, I've seen some dudes ripping some ridiculous shit in those boots, but they're way better skiers than me.
I'm 6' and 155lbs and ski 175-185cm skis mostly. My mountaineering skis are 177cm G3 Spitfires, but in all honesty, I don't size them for the possibility of skiing on them with 210lbs (big winter pack) as I'm survival skiing with that much weight anyway. |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
6302 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 07:46 AM
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If your only going to be walking in the skis for the most part and won't be doing much skiing then ski length doesn't really matter. Shorter is lighter obviously. There is no right length for skis for all situations, it depends on how aggressively you are skiing, or how turny you want them to be ect ect. I'm sure one of the resident old folks will chime in by saying the "shaped" skis are "supposed" to come up to your nose or forehead or some such nonsense.
Tip rocker / early rise helps with floation and makes powder skiing easier. It also makes turning easier and makes a ski feel shorter than it is on more packed snow. Tail rocker might not be your thing.... Tip rocker combined with traditional camber is awesome and more versatile. The wider you go, the better in powder and the worse on groomers...all though they are not hard to ski on groomers at all. If you want to do lots of real skiing and powder hunting mixed in with your walks and still want a good resort ski then some thing around 90-100 is a good all around width. If you're only going to be walking in them and skiing the groomer in a resort then some thing narrower will be lighter and do just fine.
If you hear the following line from any one in regards to fat skis "I like to ski in the snow not on it", it's an automatic disqualification for them knowing wtf they are talking about. Crusty old crones like to say it having never tried. Their the same types who still ski like shit and hack away on their old 65mm skis.
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
6302 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 07:47 AM
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| If you do end up getting a ski with tip rocker / early rise then go longer than you normally would....since they ski shorter. |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
6302 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 08:04 AM
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quote:
as well as the curve (tip, middle, tail)
Camber is the arch shape that a ski has. When placed flat on the ground, you will notice that a ski touches the ground near the tip, and at the tail and the middle is an arch shape. This is "traditional" camber. Tip rocker / early rise with traditional camber is basically the same, only take the point where the tip touched the ground and move it back toward the boot. Same as tail rocker, only in reverse order. This rocker or early rise keeps the tips floating in deep snow. Camber is good for skiing on groomers, and when loading up the skis during turns in deep snow, your weight coming down on the ski bends the camber out of the ski. You will notice a good skier working it with the huge up and down movements during turns in deep snow.
Alot of powder skis have very little, or no camber. With the camber already out of the ski you don't have to use the technique of bouncing your turns in deep, you can pivot and slarve your turns around easier.
There are also reverse camber skis. Reverse camber skis ("rockered, or fully rockered"), when placed on the ground will only touch the ground in the middle, instead of at the tip and tail like cambered skis. These are awesome deep powder weapons, but are very powder specific and are usually very wide and heavy also. Definately not ideal for hard pack.
Lots of camber isn't ideal in deep snow, depending on tip width ect. You may notice the old gaurd, who can't ski anyways...on their old gear leaning waaaay back trying to keep the tips from diving under the snow. Tip rocker allows you to ski centered or weight forward and the tips won't dive on you.
If you want to see the tip rocker / early rise profile of a ski with traditional camber early rise combo then hold the ski together base to base and press them together in the middle to remove the camber and you'll get a really good sense of the early rise.
*early rise / tip rocker...same idea but slightly different. Same effect. |
Edited by - time2clmb on 10/27/2010 08:07 AM |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1422 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 08:57 AM
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For an all round ski in the coast range I'd recommend something with a waist in the 80-90mm range. 100mm+ skis are great in powder, but difficult to manage in hard snow unless you have tall stiff boots.
For boots, as the others mentioned, fit should be your #1 priority. Try on as many different boots as possible. I won't comment on AT bindings since I ski telemark and don't have any experience with AT bindings.
Do yourself a favour and hit the resorts for a couple days before you take your new rig into the backcountry. That will get you a good jump start on relearning how to ski. Backcountry snow conditions are often difficult and you don't get much mileage in a day compared to skiing at a resort. Don't be surprised if at first you are actually slower than you were on your snowshoes - on both the ups and the downs. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1461 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 10:12 AM
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Get the boots first. That way you're not limiting yourself by only looking for Dynafit compatible bindings. You'll have to choose between light, low and soft and heavier, tall and stiff. For the resort a 4 buckle boot is best whereas for hiking with some sliding to get back down the lighter boot would be better. The lines are being blurred a bit as the big boots get lighter but the choice still needs to be made.
If the boots have inserts then go Dynafit, otherwise Freerides.
For skis, I'm biased toward the short fat side of things because that has worked well for me. Something in the 90-100mm underfoot range and on the light side, 175cm give or take depending on the ski. Don't get hung up on the length since it is hugely variable. Ski companies measure it differently, the amount of curve in the tip and tail change how long they ski etc. Start on the short side and go longer as you feel you need it. I'm 5'8" and ski 168s but am ready for some longer skis with tip rocker. |
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Outward Bound author of the Seinfeld Thread, who builds his own snowshoes
Troy, MT
USA
3124 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 10:32 AM
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| mtraslin has a pair of dynafit skis for a good price for sale right now. might be a good option. |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3505 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 1:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by time2clmb
If you hear the following line from any one in regards to fat skis "I like to ski in the snow not on it", it's an automatic disqualification for them knowing wtf they are talking about. Crusty old crones like to say it having never tried. Their the same types who still ski like shit and hack away on their old 65mm skis.
I find two types of those dudes. One is the guy I came across skiing the slackcountry of Lake Louise one day. He had ~205 long, ~70mm skis and leather boots on three pin tele bindings. And he RIPPED the steepest shit on them!! We shared a hot drink and he explained that he had a wicked fat AT set up, but still liked to get out on old gear just for the hell of it. I know another guy that I call "SITS" for Stuck In The Seventies. He has skinny skis, straight ice tools, Snargs (pound in ice screws) steel carabiners (his rack weighs as much as my whole pack) and all kinds of other stuff from 1979. Seems that 1979 was the last year anything good was made, according to him.
I don't like change for the hell of it, but man, stuff does get better. My newest full-on double-wall mountaineering tent weighs 3.5kg and has more than enough room for three dudes and gear. My -32C bag weighs 1600g and my 80L pack weighs 2.2kg and can carry a ton. Early rise tip or tip rocker skis make even me look decent in powder.
Today, I'd only consider skis with an early rise tip. It's a real advantage going down in soft snow, skins up better, and with some camber and side cut under the foot, can grab edges on hardpack or groomers. I don't think K2 make any skis anymore with "traditional camber." |
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
3787 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 7:13 PM
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| Take the opinions into consideration, look around, and then RENT for a season. From as many different places as you can. Try out everything to which you can get access, and then you'll be able to learn what works for you, and go out and buy what you really want in a year - rather than buying something on a recommendation now, and deciding after a season that it's not right for you at all. |
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Van, BC
Canada
2787 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2010 : 11:41 PM
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Useful info in this thread. Mostly just posting here so I can find it later on when I want to get into AT skiing.
-Ryan |
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Male'
Maldives
94 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2010 : 12:54 PM
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I couldn't agree more with the last 2 postings! RENT! Borrow if you can. I did for a couple seasons, it was a pain but worth it. Then consider buying used at the end of the season.
I've been skiing since I was a kid, thought I was pretty good, but transitioning to back country was (is!) a humbling experience for me.
I did the BCMC BCSki course and got SPANKED in the ungroomed, deep, steep, treed stuff, that I thought I liked to do on the resort!? The difference was I'd do one of those runs with maybe a daypack, then go do moguls or groomers or skied out stuff. You get tired punching those turns with an overnight pack and a tent on your back, with no break on the lift or a groomer.
My first weekend out I realized my rented skis (170s) were maybe resort-length for me, but turning them in steep wet deep stuff (yay coastal snow! in January!) was exhausting. I fell down a lot (I never fall on the resort), and getting back up in deep untracked stuff with a heavy pack, over and over... well, you get the picture.
Bindings: I tried Freerides, Silverettas (they failed on Needle Pk), and I've got a pair of Dynafit Verts in a box for when I can afford my ultra-light touring skis. I've heard mixed reviews from reliable sources about Onyx - my guess is there are some "ironing out" issues with this new-last-year arrival on the market, that will probably be addressed quickly by their excellent manufacturer.
Skis: I'm nowhere near good enough in the backcountry to worry too much about how my skis perform - but I went shorter so that turning's easier. I'm 5'4", 170lbs with that overnight pack, and my 156 G3 Nectars are a little short and skinny for good backcountry powder use - but I do use them on the resort too, and I got them, along w/ skins and Freerides, for $300 @ the MEC gearswap so they'll do while I'm still getting into the sport, and I can probably sell them after a season for the same price.
Boots: best advice from the BC course that I got was to spend your money here. Get something that fits. I blew almost $600 on Scarpa Divas (and that was a reduced price!!)which I love. I've never spent that kind of dough on clothing but they were worth it, I love 'em. Did a 1000' vertical hell bushwhack with them up & down on the way to the Brew Hut this May just so I could reach snow to try out my new skis, and they rocked, climbing up and over hell clearcuts, fording streams....
My poles are SITS poles... LOL! No they're not bamboo, but almost!! 
Lastly, think about what you're going to want to do in the backcountry. This may take a season or so to become clear. Do you want to get in and do aggressive yo-yo skiing, do you want to go touring, if so are we talking Spearhead or Garibaldi Neve Traverses or longer, epic 6+ day trips like some of my friends do every year? Are they going to double (like me) for your resort skis? And are you going to be in interior deep pow (sigh) or wet / icy / chunky $#!7 here on the coast. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1422 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2010 : 1:22 PM
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| Everyone I know who has rented boots lately has had problems. I think a big part of the problem is that all the boots these days have thermo mouldable liners, and rental boots don't get moulded to your feet. |
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opinionated-stove huggin'-fleece wearin'-arse burnin' hill virgin
Here
Canada
4642 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2010 : 1:23 PM
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...or you could take my route. I didn't intend to do really steep powdered slopes so I went with a nordic backcountry ski setup...wider(shaped) and shorter than x-country skis AND with edges, the boots a little stiffer(similar to tele). Lighter than AT skis, they are great for logging roads(Elfin Lakes and Tetrahedron are examples of a ideal Nordic backcountry ski route).
I found that a lot of my snowshoeing ended up being exhausting slogs up some road on the way to great backcountry...my setup shortened the time it took condiderably. |
Edited by - Hiker Boy on 10/29/2010 1:38 PM |
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north van, bc
Canada
940 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2010 : 9:17 PM
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thanks, lots of info!. I will definatly rent atleast once. But renting more seems like a pain in the butt.
I have an avi course booked for early dec (on snowshoes). |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
6302 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2010 : 9:40 PM
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| Don't bother renting boots, it's a lame idea. You will get a different pair every time and the same ski might feel totally different with 2 different kinds of boot worn. Get your boots at a bootfitter that includes bootwork done for free when you buy the boots there...if you can find one. A bootfitting session is well worth the money if not. Sales people in Sportcheck type places are total useless twits that probably do not even ski more than a couple times per year. |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3505 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2010 : 10:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by time2clmb
Don't bother renting boots, it's a lame idea.
I figured that I'd rent boots for my daughter, as her feet are still growing. Big mistake. Poor fitting boots ruin the whole ski experience when it comes to bc skiing. It's a little easier to use rental boots at a resort as you're not touring in them, but boot fit is still such an integral part of skiing.
So, I bit the bullet and bought the kid some good boots, and it totally turned around her experience. |
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Sicamous, BC
Canada
12 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2010 : 07:40 AM
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quote:
Don't bother renting boots, it's a lame idea.
100% true. Boots can be underestimated, but can make or break your experience. Take the time to find some stellar boots, and then demo some skiis. Most places will allow you to demo many kinds of skiis in a 1 day or 2 day period, as long as you return one pair before you try the next. Plus, if you do choose to buy a set that you demoed, the price of the demo should come off of the cost price. (I know, $40 off of $1000 might not seem like much...)
I chose to demo skiis last year, for the full season, before buying and I am really glad I did. Several times I had my mind made up, and then I demoed something better the next time. There is some amazing gear out on the market today, and the only way to find out if it is for you is to DEMO!!!
Peace. |
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north van, bc
Canada
940 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2010 : 12:19 PM
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| who does bootfitting? does MEC do this? or where should I be boot shopping? |
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north van, bc
Canada
940 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2010 : 6:40 PM
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so after spending the day boot shopping today, and planing on only buying boots... I ended up putting a set of 177cm G3 spitfires (89mm all mountain) and ST vertical bindings on layaway. both 2009 versions on clearance. got a couple days to think about it before someone else grabs em.
part of me is saying leave em and rent for a bit. and part of me says buy em and get my ass on the mountain :D |
Edited by - smac on 11/07/2010 6:41 PM |
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1058 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2010 : 6:46 PM
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| I have some Spitfires, they're an awesome all around ski. |
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school me on skis
