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36 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 2:04 PM
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does anyone know a way to slow down/stop when glissading without an ice axe?
i will have 2 poles. i am thinking to bum glissade, and if i feel i need to slow down, i will hold the poles low and stick them into the snow and turn onto my belly to stop.
i also thought about stick tape onto the bottom of my hiking shoes and doing the glissade in a low squating position but it sounds it could be dangerous. |
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North Vancouver, BC
Canada
1656 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 2:17 PM
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You'll stop at the bottom.....
I would recommend that you bring the appropriate equipment and learn how to use it in a safe place before relying on it to save your life.
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 2:32 PM
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Alternate objects (poles, sharp rocks, dinner plate shaped rocks in soft snow) can be used to self arrest using the same technique as self arresting with an ice axe. Doing this is a lot harder than using a real ice axe, so I don't recommend it unless you really know what you are doing. Personally I only use this technique if there is a very short snow patch to deal with in an otherwise snow free trip.
With ski poles, you need to remove the straps and grip the shaft of the pole close to the tip. Otherwise you'll just break the pole. You might break the pole anyway since they really aren't designed for that sort of use.
There a lot more to self arrest technique that turning onto you belly and sticking you ice axe /ski pole / rock / whatever into the snow. Get someone who knows how to do it to show you and practice in a safe place. |
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Burnaby, BC
Canada
667 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 2:34 PM
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You better go practice some where before you go for it some where help wont find you? For one thing if you have poles they wont help you when your on your ass, So stay on your feet and ski. If you fall on your ass and start to slide out of control and there are cliffs or crevasse your dead. The only way to stop is stay square facing down hill and dig both heals in. Depending on how steep it is it may take 50 feet to stop and if it to steep you wont stop until you hit the bottom or a grade that you can dig your heals.. The worst thing that can happen is for you to start sliding sideways or backwards as your heals are the only thing that can stop you other then by colliding with some thing. I have done lots of Glicading/boot skeing and had one fall with cliffs on my left and right side that scared me but with calm and swift heel action there was little risk.
To be honest unless you have allot of experience sliding on glaciers/snow fields don't risk it. The only way I will ever ski down some thing on my boots without an ice axe is if I can see the bottom and there are no rocks or cliffs in my way .. that way if you did loose control you wont die.
You could hold your poles close to the end of the shaft and dig them in if you got turned around I guess.
Death as we all know is a very real risk when your in the back country and make a mistake. |
Edited by - MatthewBaldwin on 09/20/2010 2:36 PM |
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 | Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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 Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 2:36 PM
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Sounds like you need a Whippet |
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Outward Bound author of the Seinfeld Thread, who builds his own snowshoes
Troy, MT
USA
3140 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 2:58 PM
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First off, I don't recommend butt-sliding. There was an incident on this board where someone was doing just that, and one foot caught on a bump and broke his leg. If you want to glissade, boot ski.(you stay drier anyways)
with that said...
depending on how hard the snow is, you can self arrest w/o and ice axe. I've done it before, and was taught it on outward bound. (excuse my poor drawing skills)
Basically, you want to point your arms straight in front of your body, with your hands together. dig your hands and feet into the snow so that you have 3 points with all your weight on them stuck into the snow.
from a butt sliding position if I fall glissading or whatever, I have had some luck first jabbing an elbow into slow me down a bit, and then flipping into this self arrest position.
obviously with crampons on you wouldn't want you feet planted, but if you have crampons you should have an ice axe too (which is the best idea to begin with)
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Edited by - Farmer on 09/20/2010 3:01 PM |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
6302 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 3:13 PM
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| Can also use elbows and knees depending on conditions. In some conditions you can't arrest at all even with an axe. Go out find a safe slope with a nice mellow run out and practice and keep going out in different conditions to see what works and what doesn't. |
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Squamish, British Columbia
Canada
1030 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 3:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by geminihc
does anyone know a way to slow down/stop when glissading without an ice axe?
There is no reason to be out somewhere were you require an Ice Axe and not have one. I know locally where I live I can rent an Ice Axe for $5 for the day. Alternately there is a consignment store near me also that usually sells second hand Ice Axes (albeit heavier than the MEC fancy variety) for $20 (last time I was in there they had a bunch of the 35y old MSR Thunderbird Axes, still in a very usable condition) |
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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3523 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 3:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by time2clmb
Can also use elbows and knees depending on conditions...
That's what I learned previous to using an axe. Works fairly well, and is best to use knees when wearing crampons. If boots-only, get your knees into the slope, and then start applying pressure with your feet.
i also thought about stick tape onto the bottom of my hiking shoes
WTF? |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 3:43 PM
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Buy an ice axe - you will not regret it.
Hitting a rock or a tree when you are sliding out of control down a snow slope is not much different from falling off a cliff. There were fatalities on Seymour and Grouse last year when snowshoers were unable to stop slides on icy snow.
If you are interested in how well ski poles or sticks work for self arrests, you should read Mountaineering Accidents. They report cases every year where people tried it and failed. The consequences tend to be disastrous.
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Edited by - weedWhacker on 09/20/2010 3:48 PM |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
6302 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 4:00 PM
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quote:
i also thought about stick tape onto the bottom of my hiking shoes
I can't believe I missed that little gem.
quote:
There is no reason to be out somewhere were you require an Ice Axe and not have one
He never said that he would be in an area that would "require" one. I can think of lots of places to go where you don't need an ice axe where you might decide to take a short cut down a nice safe little slope with a good runout in order to have some fun or save some time.
Given the tape comment though, he's either a troll or a dumbass.
A ski pole is not a substitute for an ice axe if travelling in areas where an axe is "required". Hiking poles snap or bend easily when used that way.
I do have to say that if you are glissading in an area where stopping might be a concern for you, then learn how to use and bring an axe. |
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north van, bc
Canada
949 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 4:57 PM
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| before you start tie a rope around a tree and around your ankle. that'll stop ya..... |
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Victoria, BC
Canada
230 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 5:36 PM
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I think that if you find yourself descending steep snowy/icy terrain without an ice axe, and the runout is particularly dicy (or unknown), you should try your best to not gain speed in the first place. Learn how to plunge step (look it up). If it is too icy for plunge stepping, try to find an alternate route. If there is no other option (if you were stupid enough to ascend something without considering the implications of descending, say) then you could try turning around and kicking steps in with your toes.
That said, get an ice axe, learn how to use it, and bring it with you. In my opinion self-arrest is a last resort, so if the runout is dicy, just go slow. |
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981 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 5:39 PM
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| when you are in the backcountry in cold temps,keep a banana in your back pocket and when the time comes it can be used for self arrest and after that it can be eaten. |
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Say Nuth Khaw Yum, British Columbia
Canada
418 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 5:42 PM
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Hey Gemini:
Is the a specific type or brand of tape you recommend for bum glissade?
Can I use the same type of tape to tape my butt cheeks wide apart to get more butt to ice contact, or does that require different tape?
thanks! |
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Vancouver
1827 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 5:49 PM
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I've saved my bacon a few times by doing pole arrests, proving that I'm an incompetent idiot.
First it is necessary to acknowledge that depending on the circumstances, one should have, and know how to use, an ice axe rather than ski poles. Or stay off steep snow, etc. But the question was about using poles for self arrest.
Ski and hiking poles are not without any strength, and some are stronger than others. Some ways of using them to arrest a slip are more effective than others, more likely to work, and less likely to break the pole. Even a broken pole has some advantages as an arrest device.
You need to have one hand just above the tip when applying braking. Far enough up that the pole can dig into whatever depth of soft snow there is, but not so far up that you risk breaking the pole due to leverage. The other hand will be higher on the pole. Holding the pole vertically helps, as does having it "under" you. Holding it above you in outstretched arms won't be very effective.
Expanding on what ScottN said: Because the poles probably will be being used for hiking (or skiing) at the time of the slip, they will be relatively long. This is too long to have one hand near the tip and one hand on the grip or in the strap. This means you will have to move your hands on the pole before you can start the arrest. Whatever time you take to rearrange your grip, your slide will be speeding up. Rapidly, in some situations. Which means the forces required to stop the slide will be that much greater.
If you can risk the time to arrange both poles to the needed grip, you double the strength of the "tool" and increase the resistance of the tips cutting through the snow. If the situation allows, you can shorten adjustable poles and/or carry them in the arrest position prior to falling. If you can bear the ridicule, you could also practise pole arrests if only to see what could happen.
It goes without saying that this should be an emergency procedure, or reserved for more benign circumstances. I'd also like to add that people who wander into the Diamond Head Cabin in the winter carrying ice axes look like posers. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 5:53 PM
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| The key to me is always being able to control my speed. If you don't think you can control your speed on a slope, you'll most likely end up in a self-rescue situation. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1325 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 6:29 PM
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| I've learnt and practiced what is shown in Farmer's diagram and found it to basically work. |
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Chilliwack, BC
Canada
301 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 6:49 PM
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| And if you end up in a self-rescue situation just call search and rescue, because 'they want to help people' ! |
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Peak bagging, bushwhacking, zamboni driving, snowshoeing, self portrait artist, and speed demon who loves to hang out on Mt. Seymour
4037 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2010 : 8:00 PM
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Everyone has answers for when you fall down on a glissade. If you don't want to fall down in the first place I'd suggest not boot skiing straight down, but rather side to side like those people on skis do. That way you can use the edges of your boots to cut into the snow to help control your speed and direction.
If you do fall down, then please refer to all those other comments .
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2010 : 08:01 AM
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Self-arrest with an ice axe works about 50% of the time, according to one report I read. Makes me wonder what the success rate would be with something that's not meant for the job.
If you already carry hiking poles, you should be able to carry an ice axe instead.
And, seriously? Sticky tape? |
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How to slowdown/stop during a Glissade w/o ice ax
