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Finally stopping that crazy suffering that is ice, climbing to concentrate on great ski tours!
3523 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 11:50 AM
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I've been backpacking for 40 of my 45 years and have had many bear encounters. None of them, close or far, have been anything like what happens between a bear and a dog. I agree that the problem is people, not dogs. People don't seem to understand that a dog can't rationally think about what is going on during an encounter with a bear and make decisions that preserve the lives of both.
I'm not a dog hater. I hate that people have stopped taking responsibility for the actions of their dogs and can't seem to think about the potential consequences of their dog traveling in certain areas, or interacting with people/animals in a certain way. They seem to feel entitled to take their dogs every single place they might wish to go, regardless of the potential outcomes to others, including people and wildlife. This is ALSO TRUE of people. Haven't we had some threads about tourists turning into tourons when they encounter wildlife, approaching and feeding bears/elk/etc?
I'm a responsible and low impact backcountry user, and I would not consider taking my dog (I probably would have one but for my allergic wife) into the backcountry. When I was a child, my parents boarded our animals while we went backpacking, as my father felt that our city-living dogs would be too unpredictable when encountering wildlife. He was right.
The bear encounter clusterfuck from Sunday evening was not the fault of the dog, or the bear. It was the fault of the woman that owns the dog. Yes, it's a people problem. How do we solve it? Ban people from the backcountry? Perhaps. |
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Jasper, ab
Canada
1041 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 12:18 PM
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Here's an article from Jasper environmental. One fact that I find interesting is that the leading cause of death of wolves in Yellowstone is Parvo which is introduced by domestic dogs
http://www.jasperenvironmental.org/dogs.htm |
Edited by - lobo on 07/28/2010 1:28 PM |
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South Surrey, BC
Canada
629 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 12:44 PM
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I have a friend who has a dog and wants to go hiking with me.
This thread has scared the livin' crap out of me into leaning towards not ever going on a hike with her and her dog anywhere there might be bears.
If the dog must be leashed, but can (and as this case has shown) shake free of it and run after a bear are we safe to go on any hike without fear of repeating this incident?
If we do go on a hike, are there hikes anyone can suggest that should be "ok" to go on with a leashed dog? Hoping for some suggestions around the lower mainland, fraser valley, manning, squamish area and whistler.
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bandana wearin', pole huckin', view lovin', dog herdin', 4x4 navigatin', lake huntin', butt-slidin' bridge crosser, who enjoys postholing with an overnighter pack
Surrey, BC
Canada
4663 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 12:51 PM
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Bears are everywhere so you can't get away from it.
How obedient is the dog? Does your friend have good control over the dog?
I wouldn't let this thread freak you out. We've been on 100's of hikes with our dogs and can count one incident involving a bear. And again it was with a mother and her cubs. We've encountered bears all the time on the trail with the dogs and nothing has happened. We all went on our merrily way.
If you really feel strongly about it tell your friend you'd like them to keep their dog at home the day you go hiking together.
quote:
Originally posted by idealistic74
I have a friend who has a dog and wants to go hiking with me.
This thread has scared the livin' crap out of me into leaning towards not ever going on a hike with her and her dog anywhere there might be bears.
If the dog must be leashed, but can (and as this case has shown) shake free of it and run after a bear are we safe to go on any hike without fear of repeating this incident?
If we do go on a hike, are there hikes anyone can suggest that should be "ok" to go on with a leashed dog? Hoping for some suggestions around the lower mainland, fraser valley, manning, squamish area and whistler.
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map hatin', coffee perc totin', garbage collectin', backpacking, action hero wannabe, who loves to hide out in Garibaldi park and will have his scouts sing if you keep him awake at night
2479 Posts |
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683 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 1:00 PM
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| nice bear. |
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Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
797 Posts |
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bandana wearin', pole huckin', view lovin', dog herdin', 4x4 navigatin', lake huntin', butt-slidin' bridge crosser, who enjoys postholing with an overnighter pack
Surrey, BC
Canada
4663 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 1:31 PM
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How did the dogs provoke the bear? The situation was that they were walking on a logging road and a bear came out of the bush and attacked. The dogs were not chasing anything.
quote:
Originally posted by booewen
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
It's not always bad to have a dog with you and not every bear/dog encounter is a negative thing. Anyone else remember this thread? http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17275&whichpage=1
Does this not just emphasize that dogs provoke bears?
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Edited by - Spunky on 07/28/2010 1:32 PM |
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map hatin', coffee perc totin', garbage collectin', backpacking, action hero wannabe, who loves to hide out in Garibaldi park and will have his scouts sing if you keep him awake at night
2479 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 1:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by booewen
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
It's not always bad to have a dog with you and not every bear/dog encounter is a negative thing. Anyone else remember this thread? http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17275&whichpage=1
Does this not just emphasize that dogs provoke bears?
Obviously someone didn't actually read the thread closely enough. |
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3022 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 1:35 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Just B
Wow! That is one hell of a scary story and you are lucky to have not become the center of the bears attention when it happened upon you two. This is a serious problem as there are seemingly more and more dogs in the backcountry these days. I totally sympathize with your situation. Seeing dogs on or off the trail in the mountains almost always takes away from some level of the peace and solitude that I seek in the mountains. Sorry doggy lovers, but not everyone loves your dog as much as you do, and in this case the lack of consideration could have cost two people their lives. 
[/quote]
quote # two[2]>I wanted to take the spray away and use it on the woman and her facking dog. Dogs are not wild animals, and do nothing more than aggravate all kinds of animals going about their business. Bears, elk, porcupines, whatever.
I reported the bear incident to Banff Dispatch and hopefully there are no more encounters. That is a heavily used trail, and I'd hate to see the bear relocated or destroyed.
This was my wife's first bear encounter, and she was seriously freaked. With the bear being up-trail from us, we decided to bail on our backpack.
The next day we day-hiked to the Bow Hut and faffed about in the 26C weather. But, as we headed up the "tourist trail" to Bow Falls (the access to to the hut breaks off at the first canyon) I noticed that almost everyone had a facking dog! What the hell is with this? People can't go anywhere without their stupid dogs?
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yep !!
And they aggravate people too.
My wife's friends and several young kids and a group of mentally-handi-capped kids were a few days ago swimming at spider lake Prov.park , signage EVERYWHERE , and still some low-life couple showed up and let their large dog into the Prohibited Zone & Beach harrassing the Kids and swimmers .
An elderly guy intervened[ all woman & kids that day ] and nearly had his block-knocked-off by these morons, swearing & spitting and scaring the beach, people bundling up babies and leaving.
This park & others has seen the loss two years ago of a summer attendant.
Phone calls to the Head Huncho gets "placating comments" but no concrete assurances of change.
Since then it has gone to the dogs and their red-neck-ignoramus owners who are usually More agressive & threatening than the Dog[s].
Not a pretty thing > dog attacks .
Not Cool to threaten kids, nor other animals.
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Edited by - cambium on 07/28/2010 1:52 PM |
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3022 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 1:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dav1481
Scary stuff. That retard was completely disrespectful you, the bears, and any other hikers in the area. And why do people carry bearspray without being able to take off the safety? Same reason they carry it in their backpack where they can't reach it?
quote:
Originally posted by johngenx
But, as we headed up the "tourist trail" to Bow Falls (the access to to the hut breaks off at the first canyon) I noticed that almost everyone had a facking dog! What the hell is with this? People can't go anywhere without their stupid dogs?
Is having a dog on a leash really that annoying to others, and if so, why? If it doesn't poop, doesn't chase, and doesn't bark, what's the problem? Is the presence of the dog itself inherently annoying? Or is it just the dog being off-leash that is the problem? For the record, I am totally against letting dogs off-leash anywhere.
We often take our dog on dayhikes, and more rarely on backpacks. We never considered taking him to Skoki due to the popularity of the area; I don't like the idea of other people who might not be dog lovers having to see a dog around camp. But on more of a remote backpacking trip, we often try to bring him along. Beats the kennel.
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How about this utterly rude nonetiquette Fact that people like to retreat to waterholes & shady lookouts on hot days Or observe nature, and along comes a group of Guys, allowing Their Dog[s] to run or walk through your site , your food, your gear, sniffing or sampling , you & your Kids stuff ?
Definately Rude & unacceptable & NON-Canadian to check out other people's stuff.
People don't do this to people But let their frackin hounds trounce thru other people's stuff without even a "sorry". What the frack gives ??
And yet, as someone earlier said, these behaviors are on the increase the past few years, and I am out in the woods alone or with family and wish to Mellow Out, Not confront nor ascert my rights and spoil my nature-mood.
[ some-one earlier on this thread posted a 2006 "example" of "Gin" and a charging bear.
Some-one else stated " provoked".
Some-one said "No" ... , .
I say, yes > provoked, bears, especially moms with cubs , are extremely sensitive , and their smell is over 5-times better than your best-sniffing hound [ which is 300 times better than a human's].
That "smell" factor is a bear's radar and "Fight" complex.
Ursa vs. canine . |
Edited by - cambium on 07/28/2010 2:13 PM |
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79 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 2:00 PM
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OMG, looks like I got a bunch of people who will come hiking with me. For me, going hiking with my dog is a chance to give back to him a sense of wild that has slowly been removed from him over generations and generation of man breeding them. The way he goes around and about in trails with a sense of freedom is very satisfying. I got a dog to help me get in shape, so to keep it at home is ludicrous. It's not like bears and other wildlife have to be on the exact trail that we're in either. There's whole forest for them to get lost. Over the 6 years I had my dog, we saw plenty of wildlife including a bear during a camping trip. I think one might be confusing dogs disturbing wildlife and one that got close to a protective mom.
The way I see it with dogs, is they are pampered, fed and taken care of by us. If at one point there's an encounter with an attacking animal, then the dogs are there to protect you by distracting or even giving their life for us. And make no mistakes, if humans get between a mother and her cubs, they'll wish they had a dog.
Having said that, I never go in places where dogs must be leashed or parks for that matter.
In life, there are lots of things that can aggravate us: neighbours, bad drivers, loud party when you want to sleep, dogs on trails for some etc. We can't change that. All we can do is adapt. |
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3022 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 2:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stéphane
OMG, looks like I got a bunch of people who will come hiking with me. For me, going hiking with my dog is a chance to give back to him a sense of wild that has slowly been removed from him over generations and generation of man breeding them. The way he goes around and about in trails with a sense of freedom is very satisfying. I got a dog to help me get in shape, so to keep it at home is ludicrous. It's not like bears and other wildlife have to be on the exact trail that we're in either. There's whole forest for them to get lost. Over the 6 years I had my dog, we saw plenty of wildlife including a bear during a camping trip. I think one might be confusing dogs disturbing wildlife and one that got close to a protective mom.
The way I see it with dogs, is they are pampered, fed and taken care of by us. If at one point there's an encounter with an attacking animal, then the dogs are there to protect you by distracting or even giving their life for us. And make no mistakes, if humans get between a mother and her cubs, they'll wish they had a dog.
Having said that, I never go in places where dogs must be leashed or parks for that matter.
In life, there are lots of things that can aggravate us: neighbours, bad drivers, loud party when you want to sleep, dogs on trails for some etc. We can't change that. All we can do is adapt.
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I disagree.
1/ you and many others are trying to "humanize" your dog[s].
2/after any scrap with a bear [ or cougar / wolf ] it is the crying sobbing owner who gets the "ear" of the Law to Destroy the Wild Predator.
Not fair, nor warranted.
Please leash your pet[s]. And clean up after them . And there are Wildlife Laws as well as Parks regulations to consider. |
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Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
797 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 2:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Spunky
How did the dogs provoke the bear? The situation was that they were walking on a logging road and a bear came out of the bush and attacked. The dogs were not chasing anything.
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Obviously someone didn't actually read the thread closely enough.
A person was with a dog and they (more specifically, the dog) was attacked by a defensive bear. The bear only attacked the dog. The dog eventually followed owner...bear followed the dog and re-attacked the dog.
It could quite clearly be that the bear was provoked by the dog. Dogs don't have to be chasing a bear to provoke it. Don't be so naive. Just a dog being in the vicinity could be threat enough for a bear with cubs.
It is obviously impossible to say whether the dog was the hero of the day or nearly the cause of a bear fatality based on that story. So I think it's a bit misleading to bring it up here as proof that dogs aren't always bad news in the backcountry.
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Edited by - booewen on 07/28/2010 2:20 PM |
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2421 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 2:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lobo
Here's an article from Jasper environmental. One fact that I find interesting is that the leading cause of death of wolves in Yellowstone is Parvo which is introduced by domestic dogs
http://www.jasperenvironmental.org/dogs.htm
Interesting. It's still surprising how many people assume it's okay to have their dogs running around loose, in spite of signage like that and all the studies. Maybe we SHOULD adopt the American rules. |
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884 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 2:31 PM
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I have 3 ethical/safety questions... help me out here. They are about hiking with a controlled dog on a leash, since I agree that dogs off-leash in the backcountry are a rude and potentially dangerous intrusion to people and wildlife.
Scenario: I'm hiking with my 40 lb dog, with his harness leashed to my waist, and he's packing out his own dog shit.
1) Will his presence irritate other hikers?
2) Will his presence stress out wildlife more than if I was hiking alone?
3) Will his presence provoke a defensive response in a bear encounter more than if I was alone?
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3022 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 2:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by peter1955
quote:
Originally posted by lobo
Here's an article from Jasper environmental. One fact that I find interesting is that the leading cause of death of wolves in Yellowstone is Parvo which is introduced by domestic dogs
http://www.jasperenvironmental.org/dogs.htm
Interesting. It's still surprising how many people assume it's okay to have their dogs running around loose, in spite of signage like that and all the studies. Maybe we SHOULD adopt the American rules.
Quote >A research paper (download pdf) published for the Montana Chapter of the prestigious Wildlife Society entitled The Effects of Recreation on Rocky Mountain Wildlife (1999) lays out the problem of the effects of dogs on wildlife:
“A little recognized consequence of human recreation in wildlife habitats is the effect domestic dogs may have on wildlife, even in the company of their owners. Even if dogs are controlled and not allowed to chase wildlife, their very presence has been shown to be disruptive to many wildlife species. Especially during winter, harassment by dogs results in excessive energy expenditures by wildlife. During spring and summer, pregnant wildlife and newborns can be particularly vulnerable to harassment or attacks by domestic dogs. Dogs are noted for their “incidental” predation upon birds and small mammals during all seasons. Domestic dogs can potentially introduce diseases (distemper, parvovirus, and rabies) and transport parasites into wildlife habitats. While impacts of domestic dogs are most notable for their effects on individual animals, the cumulative effects from dogs may have important implications for wildlife populations."
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This is a continous problem close to where I live.
We have a long waterfront wildlife special management zone geared to protect migrating Brants, but the "wildlife "managers have utterly ignored the other species such as Plovers that visit these shores in great numbers, along with many raptors that follow and feast in the tide-zones.
There is a season that dogs are not permitted on the beach, but the season does not reflect the other species Nor the shifting climate & corresponding shift in migration patterns.
This wildlife zone has practically no enforcement, people will still allow their canine[s] to run absolutely loose , & in Packs, on shorelines that see 900 meters of sand at low tides.
That is enough to disrupt the wildlife.
I have approached this year a woman with a loose dog and one of those springy-plastic-ball- throwers for long distance throwing.
She pointed to a "Map-Sign" and bluntly stated "I am allowed on this particular stretch with my dog".
In theory, she was, only about 300 meters BUT I pointed to a group of 1200-1500 Brants, some raptors, oyster catchers, etc, and said "You are Not allowed when the Wildlife presence indicates otherwise."
I.E. NO Harrassment.
And still she proceeded to take her dog there !?!
And it is truly amazing how quickly they leash up and leave when they look backwards and see that they/she/he are being video'd .
* Gotta Love that 12.2 million pixels ! * |
Edited by - cambium on 07/28/2010 2:44 PM |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
6302 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 2:42 PM
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quote:
For me, going hiking with my dog is a chance to give back to him a sense of wild that has slowly been removed from him over generations and generation of man breeding them.
My entitelment thinking alarm just went off.
Is the popcorn ready yet, this thread should provide some rest day entertainment. |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
6302 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 2:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dav1481
I have 3 ethical/safety questions... help me out here. They are about hiking with a controlled dog on a leash, since I agree that dogs off-leash in the backcountry are a rude and potentially dangerous intrusion to people and wildlife.
Scenario: I'm hiking with my 40 lb dog, with his harness leashed to my waist, and he's packing out his own dog shit.
1) Will his presence irritate other hikers?
Yes, it wouldn't irritate me, but it will certainly irritate others. Every thing seems to bother some one.
quote:
2) Will his presence stress out wildlife more than if I was hiking alone?
Maybe maybe not.
quote:
3) Will his presence provoke a defensive response in a bear encounter more than if I was alone?
See #2
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Edited by - time2clmb on 07/28/2010 2:46 PM |
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Squamish, British Columbia
Canada
1030 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 2:47 PM
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When dog owners here have their dogs unleashed on the trails and hear news reports of Bears having to be killed due to being provoked by dogs do you not feel slightly guilty?
I mean we don't light fires for fear of running the risk of starting a wildfire. Why have your dog of the leash when you know you run the risk of it provoking a bear and that bear having to be put down because of your carelessness?
It's also inconsiderate of other hikers on the trails. A lot of people expect dogs to be leashed. On a few occasions I've had someones loose dog barrel out of the alders and scare me, and my wife, half to death. Recently we had a lab that kept lapping us, kicking up mud all over us. The owners where no where to be seen.
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Facking dogs in the backcountry!
