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Vancouver, British Columbia
Canada
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by Spunky
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Originally posted by DPM
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Originally posted by NS Explorer
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scottN Posted - 11/16/2009 : 1:26 PM
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Originally posted by judas391
Is there another way to get up to crown or goat if the bcmc trail is closed? Btw, does anyone know if there's enough snow on crown/goat to warrant snowshoes?
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Yes. Just walk around the locked gate and hike up whichever trail you want. Read this before you go: http://avalanche.ca/cac/bulletins/cac-bulletins/north-shore/
Pretty irresponsible posting this type of thing on the internet, scott.
judas391: check the bulltein cited by scottN - they will start becoming available regularly soon (assuming CAA's funding continues)
judas391 & NS Explorer - it's about personal responsibility for your actions - you cannot blame beta posted on the internet - do not blame others - take responsibility for your choices - found those choices upon appropriate training, equipment, experience and judgment - and if you choose "wrong" be ready to deal with it.
Meaning: NSR & NS Explorer to come & save your ass.
That is not what I was suggesting at all. |
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 Peak bagging, bushwhacking, zamboni driving, snowshoeing, self portrait artist, and speed demon who loves to hang out on Mt. Seymour
3994 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 10:56 AM
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| The big yellow sign near the (now locked) gate usually says that the Grind and BCMC trails are closed. If you choose to go around the fence, then it's ususally just signage on the Grind saying it's closed. |
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bandana wearin', pole huckin', view lovin', dog herdin', 4x4 navigatin', lake huntin', butt-slidin' bridge crosser, who enjoys postholing with an overnighter pack
Surrey, BC
Canada
4646 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 10:59 AM
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DPM: Maybe not but that is the most likely outcome. So yes, even though it's your own personal responsibility it becomes someone else's problem to rescue you from those decisions.
We all know the rules when it comes to the Grind, many people on here still use it and that's fine but no need to advocate it online. |
Edited by - Spunky on 11/18/2009 11:00 AM |
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Vancouver, British Columbia
Canada
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 11:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Spunky
DPM: Maybe not but that is the most likely outcome. So yes, even though it's your own personal responsibility it becomes someone else's problem to rescue you from those decisions.
We all know the rules when it comes to the Grind, many people on here still use it and that's fine but no need to advocate it online.
My concept of "personal responsibility" is that when you make a poor choice, or unanticipated circumstances occur, you be prepared to deal with it yourself (by means of having the appropriate experience, training, equipment etc.) and you don't esort to SAR.
So I disagree that the consequences of bad decisions must inherently and inevitably "become someone else's problem". However, nor do I doubt that in the future NSR will be called upon to rescue those persons who are not prepared to deal with their circumstances. Unfortunately, I suspect that there will always be a certain percentage of people who irresponsibly get themselves into trouble and will not be able to self-rescue.
But I didn't think that I (or scottN for that matter) were advocating for anyone to exceed their abilities. And the information posted was no great secret. People will either respect or ignore the signs based on their own decisions and judgment.
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bandana wearin', pole huckin', view lovin', dog herdin', 4x4 navigatin', lake huntin', butt-slidin' bridge crosser, who enjoys postholing with an overnighter pack
Surrey, BC
Canada
4646 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 11:58 AM
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There's another equation to that though:
If you're a responsible outdoor enthousiast ... when you go out you should let somebody know where you are and when you'll be back. Leave a note in your vehicle ... etc. So even though you might go out prepared should something go wrong, your backups automatically dispatch SAR. Unless you specifically leave a note saying "whoever finds this don't worry about me I've gone out fully prepared so don't come & search for me". Or telling your loved ones or friends that if you don't return when you're supposed to, to ignore that and not call for help because your are self reliant. And even then, they'd still come and look for you.
Shit happens on the simplest of trails and luckily for us we have people that will come to our aid. For crying out loud, the last guy that lost his life on the GG went off the trail for a crap or something. You can checkoff everything on your list that you are "prepared" and trained for a situation but if you break an ankle, late at night, in a blizzard with extreme temperatures, I doubt you will survive even if you brought the appropriate clothing, extra food, etc. Yet SAR will still be out there looking for you because it's what they do.
quote:
Originally posted by DPM
quote:
Originally posted by Spunky
DPM: Maybe not but that is the most likely outcome. So yes, even though it's your own personal responsibility it becomes someone else's problem to rescue you from those decisions.
We all know the rules when it comes to the Grind, many people on here still use it and that's fine but no need to advocate it online.
My concept of "personal responsibility" is that when you make a poor choice, or unanticipated circumstances occur, you be prepared to deal with it yourself (by means of having the appropriate experience, training, equipment etc.) and you don't esort to SAR.
So I disagree that the consequences of bad decisions must inherently and inevitably "become someone else's problem". However, nor do I doubt that in the future NSR will be called upon to rescue those persons who are not prepared to deal with their circumstances. Unfortunately, I suspect that there will always be a certain percentage of people who irresponsibly get themselves into trouble and will not be able to self-rescue.
But I didn't think that I (or scottN for that matter) were advocating for anyone to exceed their abilities. And the information posted was no great secret. People will either respect or ignore the signs based on their own decisions and judgment.
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Coquitlam, BC
Canada
153 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 1:00 PM
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| the weather this weekend does not look so good in the metro van area as well :( |
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Vancouver, British Columbia
Canada
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 1:21 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Spunky
... when you go out you should let somebody know where you are and when you'll be back. Leave a note in your vehicle ... etc. So even though you might go out prepared should something go wrong, your backups automatically dispatch SAR. Unless you specifically leave a note saying "whoever finds this don't worry about me I've gone out fully prepared so don't come & search for me". Or telling your loved ones or friends that if you don't return when you're supposed to, to ignore that and not call for help because your are self reliant. And even then, they'd still come and look for you.
This dynamic would apply everywhere and all the time, wouldn't it (i.e. not just the Grouse Grind in winter)? That's why you leave a realistic return time with your contact at home, that also factors in a "buffer" (might be an hour, a day, a week - depends on the circumstances) to account for dealing with the possible unanticipated.
Shit happens on the simplest of trails and luckily for us we have people that will come to our aid. For crying out loud, the last guy that lost his life on the GG went off the trail for a crap or something. You can checkoff everything on your list that you are "prepared" and trained for a situation but if you break an ankle, late at night, in a blizzard with extreme temperatures, I doubt you will survive even if you brought the appropriate clothing, extra food, etc. Yet SAR will still be out there looking for you because it's what they do.
I agree - shit can still happen, even to the best prepared. Living life is risky. But there are reckless risks and there are calculated risks.
I fully respect SAR and their work - I never intended to suggest otherwise, if that is what you thought. But the people who make poor decisions and cause unnecessary rescues are going to keep doing what they do, regardless. Posting (or not posting) information on the internet will not change that. |
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Trail running, bike hucking, fast packing, beer drinking collector of pine cones on a day pass
AKA
Dances with Trees
Forest Gnome Cabin
Canada
13015 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 3:21 PM
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I find it odd that neither Grouse or the GVRD actively encourages hikers to use the Skyline Trail/Simic Trail to access the chalet when the Grind and BCMC are closed because like I said before it is a much safer alternative. The only catch being that you have to head along the Baden Powell for a ways before you can hook onto it.
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1116 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 6:16 PM
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| All trails east of Mckay creek/Simic are raked by avalanches all winter long.Certain death to hike them in the winter. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
274 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2009 : 11:43 AM
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quote:
I find it odd that neither Grouse or the GVRD actively encourages hikers to use the Skyline Trail/Simic Trail to access the chalet when the Grind and BCMC are closed because like I said before it is a much safer alternative. The only catch being that you have to head along the Baden Powell for a ways before you can hook onto it.
Mick, did yourself and Doug also add trail markings to the lower sections of the MacKay Creek trail, near the Old BCMC and Baden Powell junctions?
Doug mentioned the addition of directional markers in that area (http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=33371), so I am just curious about the MacKay Creek trail in particular.
Larsen and MacKay are my preferred (legal) lululemon free zones on Grouse year round.
I wonder if Grouse Mt. Resorts has control issues in the MacKay / Larsen area (e.g. those "Do Not Trespass" signs on certain trees).
Ted, I doubt that your favourite winter access trails will be overrun by tourists anytime soon 
- Tom |
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Peak bagging, bushwhacking, zamboni driving, snowshoeing, self portrait artist, and speed demon who loves to hang out on Mt. Seymour
3994 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2009 : 3:09 PM
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| Snow level Wed (Nov 18) night was about one third of the way up the BCMC. Getting pretty deep on the upper part of the trail. |
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Trail running, bike hucking, fast packing, beer drinking collector of pine cones on a day pass
AKA
Dances with Trees
Forest Gnome Cabin
Canada
13015 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2009 : 3:22 PM
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MacKay Creek Trail isn't remarked yet as far as I know, not sure if Doug remarked the junction there.
We marked Larsen from the Baden Powell to the junction with the new BCMC, and Doug marked the entire Old BCMC route to the junction with new BCMC. Plans are in the works to review some of the other trails in the future. The main purpose of the exercise was to be able to direct lost hikers either onto the BCMC or the Baden Powell. There are a great number of trails on the mountain which exist but have never been marked at all |
Edited by - mick range on 11/19/2009 4:26 PM |
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North Vancouver
Canada
745 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2009 : 8:23 PM
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Tom,
I flagged the MacKay Creek trail South of the Baden Powell to the Power Line (I ran out of markers that day). NSR marked the entire MacKay Creek Trail 5 years ago, and it's frustrating that someone removed all the markers.
Not sure why someone would remove markers? Maybe they are trying to keep their trail secret? Well, there are no secret trails on the front side of Grouse! Removing markers just makes NSR's job harder.
The "do not tresspass" signs are from a private landowner worried about legal liability, it has nothing to do with Grouse Resorts.
Doug |
Edited by - NS Explorer on 11/19/2009 8:25 PM |
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Vancouver, British Columbia
Canada
558 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2009 : 10:18 PM
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judas391 & NS Explorer - it's about personal responsibility for your actions - you cannot blame beta posted on the internet - do not blame others - take responsibility for your choices - found those choices upon appropriate training, equipment, experience and judgment - and if you choose "wrong" be ready to deal with it.
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Hey NS Exlporer - BTW, in retrospect my original post seems kind of pissy, but that is not what I intended - when I sent that I had just finished reading an article in a major finished reading an article in a national outdoors magazine about this incident and the ensuing lawsuit: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/06/15/bc-search-rescue-service-suspended.html- my disgust was misdiected by addressing that post to you. |
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Grouse Grind trail update Nov 5, 2009
