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 Moxie scambler of pinnacles, tireless leader haunting the CDN/US border climbing everything in sight
Burnaby, BC
Canada
1250 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 11:10 PM
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Mr. Little Jeans, I'd also recommend joining the VI section of the ACC. There are lots of great people who will steer you in the right direction for gear, trips, trip ideas, and you'll meet lots of like-minded people. Of course, to T2C's point, always keep your eyes wide-open. Good luck and happy climbing!
PB |
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365 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 06:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by time2clmb
A gorby for saying not to blindly trust club trip leaders simply because they are in a club.
A noob for suggesting that it's a good idea to take a course (club course or not, doesn't matter if the guide is ACMG certified) before heading out with anyone.
A gorby for warning of people like you that get out 3x a year for 10 years and think they are fully qualified and experienced to teach whatever skills you feel like.
A noob for saying clubs are not a gaurantee of leader competence.
You totally fail to see that I typed
I have been on a couple of very good club trips as a matter of fact and there are some good leaders out there. The whole point I am trying to make is don't assume the leader is competent just because it's a club trip.
It is good that you are now retracting to these general warnings, which I am sure nobody would disagree with. Note also, that your defense of "online partners" eg. word gets around, apply to the club leaders as well, as Prother pointed out.
But your original posts were clearly more antagonistic and extreme.
eg.
"I'm going to go against the grain here and say to stay away from the Alpine clubs if you want to progress."
"It seems as though for the most part alpine club group outings are full of new climbers in blind leading the blind scenarios."
PS, "OCASIONALLY you might get a good trip leader, but it seems like for the most part they are weekend warrior "sometimes" climbers." I think it's fairly rare to find professional full-time guides looking for partners online....almost everybody on this board, and most others, are, in fact, "weekend warriors" to various degrees!
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
2292 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 08:09 AM
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Whole point is that once you have a general understanding of the proper techniques and safety assessment, you can do club trips or find online partners or any of that. But until you do, it's a bad idea to go out with random leaders whose credentials you are not able to assess. I think the issue with club trips as opposed to random partners is that people get the illusion that club leaders are official, highly experienced guides, and don't feel the same need for caution, when in reality, the leader might know little more than the participants. Sure, there are some incredible mountaineers that lead these trips, but even if that's the majority, when it's not a requirement, a person needs to be very cautious when they aren't yet able to tell the difference between that and an occasionial untested climber.
A course is a great starter no matter how you plan to do it afterwards, since it will give you the knowledge and the tools to assess the risks for yourself as you then go out with clubs or partners and get the experience. |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
4770 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 09:15 AM
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quote:
But your original posts were clearly more antagonistic and extreme.
You are correct.
This is the less antagonistic version with tact, of what I was trying to say:
quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
Whole point is that once you have a general understanding of the proper techniques and safety assessment, you can do club trips or find online partners or any of that. But until you do, it's a bad idea to go out with random leaders whose credentials you are not able to assess. I think the issue with club trips as opposed to random partners is that people get the illusion that club leaders are official, highly experienced guides, and don't feel the same need for caution, when in reality, the leader might know little more than the participants. Sure, there are some incredible mountaineers that lead these trips, but even if that's the majority, when it's not a requirement, a person needs to be very cautious when they aren't yet able to tell the difference between that and an occasionial untested climber.
A course is a great starter no matter how you plan to do it afterwards, since it will give you the knowledge and the tools to assess the risks for yourself as you then go out with clubs or partners and get the experience.
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Edited by - time2clmb on 09/13/2009 09:16 AM |
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51 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 11:27 AM
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I hate to stir the pot, but I couldn't resist . . .
quote:
I have been climbing for 2 years at LEAST 4 times per month
Would that be on weekends? |
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Forbidden Plateau, BC
Canada
104 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 12:38 PM
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Hey Mr.LJ,
I know their summer season is winding down, but definitely look into Island Alpine Guides courses, Jan and Cliff are both certified guides with tons of significant trips under their belts and very well versed in mountain sense and education, not to mention they are both really great guys!
Here's a link: http://www.islandalpineguides.com
Also notice how they and the Vancouver Island section of the Alpine Club of Canada endorse each other!
Feel free to contact me via email if you want to get together for complimentary recreational trips anytime, we don't pretend to be anything we're not and always love to turn on new folks to the scene.
Just got back from a fun trip yesterday scoping out new scrambling terrain in the Prince of Wales Range, my partner is highly trained military and I work as a professional guide. So, contact us anytime if you want to go on a very fun and safe trip in some super cool Island terrain.
M
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
4770 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 1:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Melonhead
I hate to stir the pot, but I couldn't resist . . .
quote:
I have been climbing for 2 years at LEAST 4 times per month
Would that be on weekends?
Gafaw! NO NO NO...weekdays only. How would I possibly give weekend warriors a hard time if I only got out on weekends? I think the 4x per month number is a little high. Oh well. |
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Black Creek, BC
Canada
10 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 2:19 PM
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So far I've seen people getting into trouble when they take the wrong route... so my best advice would be - get a GPS, play dsome geocaching so you know very well how to use it. I mean to the point of open google earth at home, have flags downloaded to you GPS and been able to follow thhose out there. When you get to that point - you will learn a lot about what to expect in a specific trail - as of difficulty level, creek crossings and lots more. That will make you more and more independent even if you go with a club or a group.
Good luck and have fun!
And check out the VROC website - we have some hikes in the Island and some scrambles on the mainland.
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365 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 3:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by time2clmb
quote:
But your original posts were clearly more antagonistic and extreme.
You are correct.
This is the less antagonistic version with tact, of what I was trying to say:
quote:
Originally posted by Rachelo
Whole point is that once you have a general understanding of the proper techniques and safety assessment, you can do club trips or find online partners or any of that. But until you do, it's a bad idea to go out with random leaders whose credentials you are not able to assess. I think the issue with club trips as opposed to random partners is that people get the illusion that club leaders are official, highly experienced guides, and don't feel the same need for caution, when in reality, the leader might know little more than the participants. Sure, there are some incredible mountaineers that lead these trips, but even if that's the majority, when it's not a requirement, a person needs to be very cautious when they aren't yet able to tell the difference between that and an occasionial untested climber.
A course is a great starter no matter how you plan to do it afterwards, since it will give you the knowledge and the tools to assess the risks for yourself as you then go out with clubs or partners and get the experience.
Fair enough!
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Calgary, Alberta
Andorra
2292 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 4:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by michiBC
So far I've seen people getting into trouble when they take the wrong route... so my best advice would be - get a GPS, play dsome geocaching so you know very well how to use it. I mean to the point of open google earth at home, have flags downloaded to you GPS and been able to follow those out there. When you get to that point - you will learn a lot about what to expect in a specific trail - as of difficulty level, creek crossings and lots more. That will make you more and more independent even if you go with a club or a group.
Good luck and have fun!
And check out the VROC website - we have some hikes in the Island and some scrambles on the mainland.
Ooooh, now you're opening up a whooooole new can of worms. One we've just been through, actually. Never touch a GPS until you're good enough with a map and compass to be able to fall back on them. And no GPS, map, compass, or google earth flags will help you when it's a question of cravasses on a glacier. When you're getting into mountaineering territory, there's quite a bit more to it than direction, and a course will help you gain all the skills. |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
4770 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 6:05 PM
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*sigh....
quote:
So far I've seen people getting into trouble when they take the wrong route... so my best advice would be - get a GPS, play dsome geocaching so you know very well how to use it.
That advice is fine if you are already solid with a map and compass but for some one starting out it's not good. Also, he mentioned mountaineering in a general sense, but for route finding in steep technical terrain this advice then becomes....*insert word of choice*
Better yet, work on route finding skills so you don't get lost in the first place and practice with a map and compass until you get solid with them and THEN consider using GPS as a compliment to a map and compass, and not as your only source of navigation.
quote:
I mean to the point of open google earth at home, have flags downloaded to you GPS and been able to follow thhose out there. When you get to that point - you will learn a lot about what to expect in a specific trail - as of difficulty level, creek crossings and lots more. That will make you more and more independent even if you go with a club or a group
No...it will only make you that much more reliant on a GPS.
quote:
So far I've seen people getting into trouble when they take the wrong route
One last comment. If you are using a GPS to get you on the right route right from the start you are then reliant on the person / website / book that you took those coordinates from in the first place. This is not independant travel at all.
PLEASE for the love of all things good don't get all bent out of shape and show me your resume because some one disagreed with you  |
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Black Creek, BC
Canada
10 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 7:22 PM
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My comment was NOT about the leader or if he/she got their title from one club or another but about the attitude some hikers have.
And yes definitly - know how to use a map and a compass first - never implied different. And so many times in the Rockies I've seen our group getting into a difficult scramble because there was no map, no compass, no GPS and a group leader that claimed to know where he/she were going and refused to listen to the group.
Where this whole situation could have been prevented not only by having a better leader but also by the group doing their homework - have an idea where they are going, have a map and a compass and express their opinion. If anyone tried EEOR from the climber route with no intention to get there, or scramble up Panorama ridge from the left side (steep exposed scramble) - both unessassary to get to the top... I look back at these days and will never be polite again when someone calls himself a group leader and puts others safety at risk.
I think that anyone that has some experience and leads groups should insist on the people that go with him to have knowledge of the route and teach others some navigation skills.
The attitude lots of hikers have - follow the leader but have no idea where they are going how to get back, where they are etc... scares me after these incidents - what if I got injures and the leader doesn't know the way?
To keep it on the positive side - I've seen some leaders scan and print a map and give copied to the hikers, explain where we are going, which part will be difficult, email reports about bear sights and more. Wish everyone would do that - since asking people to bring a map doen't seem to work.
So lets leave the GPS can of warms alone... your tools are only as good as you know their limitations and how to use them. And I look at the map and the GPS too...
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
4770 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 7:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by michiBC
My comment was NOT about the leader or if he/she got their title from one club or another but about the attitude some hikers have.
And yes definitly - know how to use a map and a compass first - never implied different. And so many times in the Rockies I've seen our group getting into a difficult scramble because there was no map, no compass, no GPS and a group leader that claimed to know where he/she were going and refused to listen to the group.
Where this whole situation could have been prevented not only by having a better leader but also by the group doing their homework - have an idea where they are going, have a map and a compass and express their opinion. If anyone tried EEOR from the climber route with no intention to get there, or scramble up Panorama ridge from the left side (steep exposed scramble) - both unessassary to get to the top... I look back at these days and will never be polite again when someone calls himself a group leader and puts others safety at risk.
I think that anyone that has some experience and leads groups should insist on the people that go with him to have knowledge of the route and teach others some navigation skills.
The attitude lots of hikers have - follow the leader but have no idea where they are going how to get back, where they are etc... scares me after these incidents - what if I got injures and the leader doesn't know the way?
To keep it on the positive side - I've seen some leaders scan and print a map and give copied to the hikers, explain where we are going, which part will be difficult, email reports about bear sights and more. Wish everyone would do that - since asking people to bring a map doen't seem to work.
So lets leave the GPS can of warms alone... your tools are only as good as you know their limitations and how to use them. And I look at the map and the GPS too...
Yay....I totally agree with that. |
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Victoria, BC
Canada
23 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 7:51 PM
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Wow, well thanks everyone for their imput. I didnt expect so many responses. From what I could distill from what everyone has said, I think I will take a course with the island alpine guides. I have heard that Jan and Cliff are great and are as trustworthy as a guide can be. They have a fairly short mountain skills course that looks pretty good.I just need some experience with glacier travel and belaying and things, so I can move onto bigger more technical moutains. Ive wanted to climb Wedge Mountain, over in garibaldi, and Victoria peak in strathcona. Hopefully next climbing season I will be able to bag those.
And as far as the navigation goes, I do have a gps, but I am a crackshot with a compass and map. So I havent had to use my gps out in the backcountry so far.
Thanks again everyone, this forum is an invaluable resource to us mountain newcomers.
-Devin |
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Forbidden Plateau, BC
Canada
104 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 9:52 PM
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Need alpine experience.. Ideas??
