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Victoria, BC
Canada
23 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 1:18 PM
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Hey everyone,
So I am a somewhat amature mountaineer, I have done a few mountains in garibaldi park, and a couple here in strathcona park, and a dusty 19000' volcano down in peru.
I want to gain confidence in the hills, mainly crossing glaciers. But nobody I associate with has any interest in mountains. How does a guy like me learn to attack those peaks that are guarded by glaciers? Is there climbing groups that anyone knows of that i could join?
Any ideas would be great.
Reading about all the great climbs in strathcona, and not having the knowhow to do them is driving me nuts!
Thanks alot everyone,
-Devin |
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5 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 1:26 PM
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Try to hook up with the Alpine Club on Vancouver Island. They usually offer great courses on glacier crossing, ice axes and roping up. Depending on where you live there are clubs in Port Alberni, Courtenay, Campbell River, Nanaimo and Victoria
From my experience I met people in these clubs who had similar aspirations of climbing the bigger peaks on the island and I've climbed a bunch of peaks on the island and on the mainland with friends that I met through these clubs.
Good luck |
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vancouver, bc
Canada
367 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 1:42 PM
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I agree with Richard. Your best choice being on the Island is probably the Alpine Club of Canada - Vancouver Island chapter (http://accvi.ca/)
For lower mainland pursuits I can't recommended enough the BCMC (www.bcmc.ca).
Also don't forget clubtread is a great resource to send out requests for partners etc. People are always going on great trips and some parties would be happy to take along someone keen to learn on an easier/shorter trip.
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Whistler, BC
Canada
753 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 2:14 PM
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Clubs with organized programs are probably the best way to go. Some organizations hold special skill-building camps as well.
Don't forget organizations like Strathcona Lodge as well. You pay for a course, but also have the opportunity to be immersed in the process for a period of time, which reinforces your learning. |
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 Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
4770 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 2:31 PM
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I'm going to go against the grain here and say to stay away from the Alpine clubs if you want to progress. Try your best to hook up with real experienced people as individuals. It's harder to go this option, but if you show you are keen and take the time to learn as much as you can it's easier to find a real mentor.
It seems as though for the most part alpine club group outings are full of new climbers in blind leading the blind scenarios. OCASIONALLY you might get a good trip leader, but it seems like for the most part they are weekend warrior "sometimes" climbers. From the groups I have seen out it's usually a shit show scenario. Before you club folk get your panties in a knot, it's not ALWAYS like that as i'm sure that there are some good groups out there. I'm speaking from not only my own experience, but from friends and partners experiences aswell. I've been on a couple of good trips, but stopped doing them altogether for a reason.
So yeah...it's a mixed bag..."box of chocolates" scenario with those clubs.
...bring on the haters  |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
4770 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 2:35 PM
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MEC gear swap is a good place to find partners as is rockclimbing.com. Yeah yeah yeah rc.com is full of noobs ect ect, but it's actually a pretty good place to meet up with solid climbers oddly enough. Just be upfront and not exaggerate about your abilities and be straight up with what you are looking for. Also check at your local climbing shop.
*edit to add...given that you are totally new there is nothing wrong with doing the club thing (as much as I don't like to admit that) until you hook up with some solid people. Getting out is better than not getting out after all. |
Edited by - time2clmb on 09/11/2009 2:39 PM |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1032 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 3:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by time2clmb
I'm going to go against the grain here and say to stay away from the Alpine clubs if you want to progress. Try your best to hook up with real experienced people as individuals. It's harder to go this option, but if you show you are keen and take the time to learn as much as you can it's easier to find a real mentor.
It seems as though for the most part alpine club group outings are full of new climbers in blind leading the blind scenarios. OCASIONALLY you might get a good trip leader, but it seems like for the most part they are weekend warrior "sometimes" climbers. From the groups I have seen out it's usually a shit show scenario. Before you club folk get your panties in a knot, it's not ALWAYS like that as i'm sure that there are some good groups out there. I'm speaking from not only my own experience, but from friends and partners experiences aswell. I've been on a couple of good trips, but stopped doing them altogether for a reason.
So yeah...it's a mixed bag..."box of chocolates" scenario with those clubs.
...bring on the haters
I would say that club trip leaders areren't any more likely to misrepresent their ability than anyone else you might solicit as a mentor. It's just that the "club" label gives them more credibility so you hold them to a higher standard. |
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vancouver, bc
Canada
367 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 3:50 PM
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A whole other ball of wax is some of the mountaineering school options. As long as you do your research and find a quality course/trip of interest you will be led by a certified guide who is somewhat focused on teaching you as you go. This might be a good start as you get some personal attention over a good variety of mountaineering skills and its pretty condensed/immersive over a 2 or 3 day weekend course. This would also give you a good base of knowledge and get you some confidence to get out and practice your technique with clubs or other partners you find. It costs money, but given your request, this is an option I think you could find value in.
It also would help you out when looking for partners as it gives you a solid base of knowledge (to be practiced and turned into skills) as someone with some experienced is a more desired partner then someone with next to know experience or training. Though it sounds like you've done a few fun trips so far.
Enjoy and as T2C points out, however you go about it, the key is just getting out there as much as you can. |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
4770 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 4:27 PM
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quote:
It's just that the "club" label gives them more credibility
...which is a problem if they aren't credible.
quote:
. This might be a good start as you get some personal attention over a good variety of mountaineering skills and its pretty condensed/immersive over a 2 or 3 day weekend course. This would also give you a good base of knowledge and get you some confidence to get out and practice your technique with clubs or other partners you find. It costs money, but given your request, this is an option I think you could find value in.
It also would help you out when looking for partners as it gives you a solid base of knowledge (to be practiced and turned into skills) as someone with some experienced is a more desired partner then someone with next to know experience or training. Though it sounds like you've done a few fun trips so far.
^ x2 |
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Qualicum Beach, BC
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 9:25 PM
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Hi Devin,
Yes, one can cite examples of Alpine Club of Canada trip leaders or the ACMG guides that they hire, when things have gone "south", but 99% of the time, these same trip leaders and guides bring their people out of the problem. Why?... Because they have gone through training and are experienced.
Alpine Club of Canada members represent some of the most experienced mountaineers in the world and include Association of Canadian Mountain Guides among their membership and instructors.
While you are not likely to get a professional or a highly experienced ACC member teaching something like intro to snowshoeing, you will get professional instruction when you take courses such as Avalanche Skills Training, or Crevasse Rescue.
The credibility of the ACC comes from over 100 years of climbing in Canada and mountains worldwide, having longtime experienced members devoted to passing along skills and lastly, keeping abreast of instructional and gear changes as they evolve.
You are not going to get this same degree of instruction by picking up some climbing partner that "seems experienced"... How do you, as an inexperienced person know the difference? While finding a general hiking partner on the MEC or this forum might be OK, you're not likely to easily find someone that can mentor you or teach you up to date skills.
Since you are from the Victoria area, my advice is to look into your local Vancouver Island ACC Section, for trying out some trips and look up Island Alpine Guides for professional instruction on the Island.
Peter
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
4770 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 9:45 PM
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quote:
While finding a general hiking partner on the MEC or this forum might be OK, you're not likely to easily find someone that can mentor you or teach you up to date skills.
Just to clarify I am not talking about COURSES through the clubs. Sure some courses are run by ACMG guides ect and that's good. I am speaking specifically about normal scheduled club trips. It's a mixed bag for "leaders". Plenty of weak leaders out there leading shit shows. Joining a regular club trip is no different than hooking up with people online ect. Just because they have the trip leader title does not mean they know what they are doing. |
Edited by - time2clmb on 09/11/2009 9:49 PM |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
4770 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 10:31 PM
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I'd like to address this too.
quote:
How do you, as an inexperienced person know the difference?
I think this applies just as much to club trips aswell. Frick...I was just trying to dredge up an old post of mine about this topic. Can't find it. In short it's basically a long version of the quote that I just said x2 to. Taking a course (club course or not, doesn't matter if the guide is ACMG certified) is a good way to get some basic skills, and hopefully one comes out of it knowing enough to know what questions to ask and to have at least some what of a feel for if people are talking out of their ass or not. It helps the person know what to question...and hopefully they do question. If some thing don't feel right it's probably not. If the person can't answer the question clearly then they are probably not solid on the subject. If the person gets defensive or runs around the question then get the fuck out.
Watch out for the following types of people. The guy that's been climbing for let's say 7 years that knows everything, but only gets out on a few trips per year. The guy that has 9 years of experience that hardly gets out once per month. They will say they have x amount of years, but won't tell you they hardly ever get out. The guy that has taken a course, has been climbing 6 months and is taking out groups of people to teach them. These people can be dangerous and are as much of a noob as the person that's been climbing less than a year.
I'm a HUGE advocate of taking a course before heading out with anyone.
Clubs are not a gaurantee of leader competence!
"Leaders" plodding along up an easy scramble section roping noobs up a ridge into an imminent storm. A "leader" ice climbing for the second time ever teaching a group ice climbing skills. Yada yada yada. Brutal.
I have been on a couple of very good club trips as a matter of fact and there are some good leaders out there. The whole point I am trying to make is don't assume the leader is competent just because it's a club trip. You have every right to screen a leader for experience as they do to you. If they get butthurt about it, they probably suck.
quote:
Alpine Club of Canada members represent some of the most experienced mountaineers in the world
I agree BUT they also represent a larger number of noobs and gorbies too. 2 sides to every coin. My mantra for this thread is clubs are not a guarantee of member competence. |
Edited by - time2clmb on 09/11/2009 10:36 PM |
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Qualicum Beach, BC
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 10:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by time2clmb
quote:
While finding a general hiking partner on the MEC or this forum might be OK, you're not likely to easily find someone that can mentor you or teach you up to date skills.
Just to clarify I am not talking about COURSES through the clubs. Sure some courses are run by ACMG guides ect and that's good. I am speaking specifically about normal scheduled club trips. It's a mixed bag for "leaders". Plenty of weak leaders out there leading shit shows. Joining a regular club trip is no different than hooking up with people online ect. Just because they have the trip leader title does not mean they know what they are doing.
Usually, club trip leaders that aren't up to snuff get weeded out by their reputation among the club "grape vine" pretty soon. If you're a poor trip leader, the word gets around pretty quick. Joining a club is very different than hooking up with people online. In a club, you have group accountability. Online? You can pretty much hang out what ever shingle you want and nobody knows the difference, because you have anonymity over and over as long as you want. You can play the "I'm an expert" to a never ending audience, outside of the conventionality of an organized group.
Speaking for myself, I have led trips for my section of the ACC and other Island clubs for over a decade and none of my trips were "shit shows" and those trips my friends have led weren't either. Poor leaders are very much a rarity and not as common as you depict.
Peter |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
4770 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 11:32 PM
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First off it was already some what apparent that you are in some way affiliated with the ACC. My posts are not an attack on you or your leadership abilities, so there really is no need to defend your trips as not being shit shows. I'm sure your trips are just fine.
quote:
Originally posted by prother
quote:
Originally posted by time2clmb
quote:
While finding a general hiking partner on the MEC or this forum might be OK, you're not likely to easily find someone that can mentor you or teach you up to date skills.
Just to clarify I am not talking about COURSES through the clubs. Sure some courses are run by ACMG guides ect and that's good. I am speaking specifically about normal scheduled club trips. It's a mixed bag for "leaders". Plenty of weak leaders out there leading shit shows. Joining a regular club trip is no different than hooking up with people online ect. Just because they have the trip leader title does not mean they know what they are doing.
Usually, club trip leaders that aren't up to snuff get weeded out by their reputation among the club "grape vine" pretty soon. If you're a poor trip leader, the word gets around pretty quick. Joining a club is very different than hooking up with people online. In a club, you have group accountability.
Not always. If the leader is mostly taking out groups of noobs, then they don't neccessarily know that they are getting poor decision making and a lack of real experience. I can think of 2 examples of leaders that fit this bill. Or perhaps the rotation of members can be greater per leader in larger clubs such as Calgary and Vancouver...?
If the group as a whole is inexperienced, and the trip is a success and they all have a good time, perhaps they were simply blind to some potentially poor decisions that they got away with? False positives. I can't see people snuffing out anyone in this case, and it can happen many times in a row.
On the flip side, in a group you also have group think. No one wants to be the one to go against the grain and cause dissention.
quote:
Online? You can pretty much hang out what ever shingle you want and nobody knows the difference, because you have anonymity over and over as long as you want. You can play the "I'm an expert" to a never ending audience, outside of the conventionality of an organized group.
Speaking for myself, I have led trips for my section of the ACC and other Island clubs for over a decade and none of my trips were "shit shows" and those trips my friends have led weren't either. Poor leaders are very much a rarity and not as common as you depict.
Peter
Most of the partners I have met online have been pretty solid, and none have tried to play "I'm and expert". Then again I have the benefit of experience to pick solid partners though a short conversation. I have only had 2 people misrepresent their abilities out of a shit ton of people I have climbed with from all over the world. But yeah, I have seen lots of people playing expert at the crag who clearly shouldn't be. It all comes back to taking those initial courses and getting a base knowledge and reading and studying the info that is available before heading out.
The majority (not all) of the people that I have been on club trips with were very inexperienced and some of them sure as shit were playing the expert.
I don't agree that online you have annonymity over and over again. You have to meet face to face with real names and the climbing community is still small enough for word to get around. I have climbed with alot of people online, and it seems that so and so knows Joe who knows Jane who has climbed with both sort of thing. The people that misrepresent are usually outed as such..."hey watch out for this guy".
"Clubs are not a guarantee of member or leader competence". I really don't know why you are taking issue with this other than that you are in the "tribe" and are a leader yourself. |
Edited by - time2clmb on 09/11/2009 11:34 PM |
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Qualicum Beach, BC
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 11:37 AM
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. I really don't know why you are taking issue with this other than that you are in the "tribe" and are a leader yourself.
[/quote]
I'm taking issue with it because I think you are giving poor advice.
Peter |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
4770 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 12:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prother
. I really don't know why you are taking issue with this other than that you are in the "tribe" and are a leader yourself.
I'm taking issue with it because I think you are giving poor advice.
Peter
So you think this is poor advice?
quote:
Taking a course (club course or not, doesn't matter if the guide is ACMG certified) is a good way to get some basic skills, and hopefully one comes out of it knowing enough to know what questions to ask and to have at least some what of a feel for if people are talking out of their ass or not.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Just because they have the trip leader title does not mean they know what they are doing
_______________________________________________________________________________
Clubs are not a guarantee of member or leader competence
[/quote]
Seems pretty obvious to me. To argue this as being bad advice is just stupid.
How the fuck is this poor advice? So you think that being in a club is a sign of leader or member competence? Now THAT is piss poor advice. You are simply being defensive on behalf of an entire nation wide organization. Yes...there are shitty leader out there...deal with it. To say there are non is just a bunch of BS. I didn't say all leader and all members. |
Edited by - time2clmb on 09/12/2009 12:27 PM |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
4770 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 12:42 PM
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Here's the other advice I gave
quote:
Watch out for the following types of people. The guy that's been climbing for let's say 7 years that knows everything, but only gets out on a few trips per year. The guy that has 9 years of experience that hardly gets out once per month. They will say they have x amount of years, but won't tell you they hardly ever get out. The guy that has taken a course, has been climbing 6 months and is taking out groups of people to teach them. These people can be dangerous and are as much of a noob as the person that's been climbing less than a year.
I'm a HUGE advocate of taking a course before heading out with anyone.
Gasp*
Trust us, don't question us, all of our leaders are totally competent and you should not question this. |
Edited by - time2clmb on 09/12/2009 12:50 PM |
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Qualicum Beach, BC
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 5:56 PM
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time2climb,
The advise that I take issue with is your sour attitude towards established clubs, that already have very experienced people, especially in regards to their own local areas, have a base membership that is easy to tap into and have educational programs already in place. Devin asked for advise and most of what he has received is your "spray".
With your last line, Trust us, dont question us, all of our leaders are totally competent and you should not question this. Who ever said or implied this?
You know time2climb, or what ever the frick your name is, the more you post, the more you sound like, in your own words, a noob and a gorby.
This is my last response to you, on this subject thread, since it has lost any relevance to the subject, and now I look forwards to your next double posts to tell everyone what? That you can have the last word? Have at it and here's to the the end of the pissing match.
Peter |
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
4770 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 6:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prother
time2climb,
The advise that I take issue with is your sour attitude towards established clubs, that already have very experienced people, especially in regards to their own local areas, have a base membership that is easy to tap into and have educational programs already in place. Devin asked for advise and most of what he has received is your "spray".
Sour attitude and advice are not one and the same...not even close but nice try. So your whole problem is with your own perception of my attitude towards clubs. You are being nothing more than protectionist against your perceived "attack" that you are totally blind to the points I was trying to make. "Clubs are not a guarantee of member or leader competence" ..it's solid and any fool can see this.
quote:
You know time2climb, or what ever the frick your name is, the more you post, the more you sound like, in your own words, a noob and a gorby.
I haven't done any "spray" at all. I am just telling the truth and letting people know there is another side to it. Nothing wrong with an opposing view point and a heads up. You can't handle it. There are other ways to find partners out there, and excercising these options is not as foolish as you think it is. You are a one trick pony who thinks there is only one way of going about things. He has already done a few trips so is obviously not completely clueless.
A gorby for saying not to blindly trust club trip leaders simply because they are in a club.
A noob for suggesting that it's a good idea to take a course (club course or not, doesn't matter if the guide is ACMG certified) before heading out with anyone.
A gorby for warning of people like you that get out 3x a year for 10 years and think they are fully qualified and experienced to teach whatever skills you feel like.
A noob for saying clubs are not a gaurantee of leader competence.
You totally fail to see that I typed
I have been on a couple of very good club trips as a matter of fact and there are some good leaders out there. The whole point I am trying to make is don't assume the leader is competent just because it's a club trip.
I even AGREED with you that " Alpine Club of Canada members represent some of the most experienced mountaineers in the world" but to ignore that there is an opposite side of this requires sticking your head in your butt.
If that makes me a noob and a gorby then so be it. Actually, it's so far beyond that, that I will even create a new class for my gross incompetence. A noob and a gorby combined. I am a norby.
You have nothing as far as my advice...all you have is you don't like my attitude. Too bad. |
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Qualicum Beach, BC
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 8:34 PM
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So, time2climb,
You just stated that you are...
A gorby for warning of people, like you, that get out 3x a year for 10 years and think they are fully qualified and experienced to teach whatever skills you feel like.
This is a direct attack on me and wont go unanswered.
In the last 10 years, I have led, on average, at least one trip per month for the ACC. That equates to over 120 scheduled trips. This is in addition to my private trips that I do with close friends. As well, I served as the Educational Director for my ACC Section for 5 years and led or assisted on many of the offerings, including ACMG instructed courses. As well, in the four decades that I have been hiking and climbing on Vancouver Island, I have summitted over 50 Island peaks, many of them notable summits.
So "norby", whats your fricken resume?
Peter
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Alberta-based choss climbin', flame throwin', rappel lovin', ass talkin' hater who doesn't like "Gumby" for a descriptor
4770 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 8:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by prother
So, time2climb,
You just stated that you are...
A gorby for warning of people, like you, that get out 3x a year for 10 years and think they are fully qualified and experienced to teach whatever skills you feel like.
This is a direct attack on me and wont go unanswered.
In the last 10 years, I have led, on average, at least one trip per month for the ACC. That equates to over 120 scheduled trips. This is in addition to my private trips that I do with close friends. As well, I served as the Educational Director for my ACC Section for 5 years and led or assisted on many of the offerings, including ACMG instructed courses. As well, in the four decades that I have been hiking and climbing on Vancouver Island, I have summitted over 50 Island peaks, many of them notable summits.
So "norby", whats your fricken resume?
Peter
Wow I am glad you felt it neccessary to write your resume. Speaking of SPRAY LMAO. 50 peaks over 40 years...impressive. 12 trips per year is seriously money. Seems as though I hit a sore spot on your ego.
I have been climbing for 2 years at LEAST 4 times per month. None of this has anything to do with the fact that CLUBS ARE NOT A GUARANTEE OF MEMBER OR LEADER COMPETENCE! Spraying your credentials does nothing to change this. Congrats on ignoring the other points.
And that's Mr. Norby. |
Edited by - time2clmb on 09/12/2009 8:51 PM |
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Need alpine experience.. Ideas??
