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207 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 6:57 PM
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quote:
"Lions Bay Mayor Brenda Broughton told CBC News it was actually unruly hikers who caused the problems and she said all her volunteers are courteous and professional."
Someone's not being truthfull.
Judging by what I've seen on here, I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle. When people on both sides of a discussion get heated, logic and courtesy go out the window. |
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Chilliwack, BC
Canada
310 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 6:58 PM
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quote:
Someone's not being truthfull.
I will vouch for the NSH that we were NOT unruly. The volunteers were gleeful, gloating and hostile. The mayor was not there. I was.
Ye Chu, president of NSH, was on the CBC TV News this evening.
I think Lions Bay has managed to impose Martial Law on the trails in their area and will not give it up easily, despite the fact the current fire danger rating is LOW and no other jurisdiction in the area has deemed it necessary to close trails. The Mayor sent me an email about a fire at Murrin Lake caused by a hydro spark. Hmmmm. Murrin Lake is not in the Lions Bay watershed. Hikers do not cause hydro sparks. |
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Hope, BC
Canada
7131 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 7:01 PM
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| And she claims "All her volunteers are courteous and professional." (polite and good photographers?) Some volunteers like this enjoy the power of denying someone something, and can be quite cocky. Hikers too can be cocky when taken away their hiking privilages. I agree it's got to be somewhere in the middle. But I sure as hell bet those volunteers enjoyed acting like cops. |
Edited by - AcesHigh on 08/11/2009 7:03 PM |
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 | Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 7:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by howes hound
quote:
Managing and restricting are two entirely different things. The construction of a new parking lot and campground at the base of the Chief by BC Parks several years ago was "managing" but not "restricting" - the size of the campground was increased and the parking approximately doubled. This is a case where an administrative body recognized that user growth was occurring and planned for it by expanding facilities.
The Lions Bay government position has been to prohibit parking and discourage as much hiking as they can in the hope that hikers would go away. This is not a responsible management position - it is NIMBYism.
What specifically is causing you grief and what's your proposed solution? You cannot compare the situation at the top of Lions Bay with parking at the Chief. There have been houses all along Sunset Drive for the past 30 years and at that time parking was more than adequate for the hiking demand. Where are the houses at the foot of the Chief? Are you proposing a multi-storey parking lot on Sunset or expropriation of private property to build a car park? Because there's no other way of accommodating extra vehicles at the trailhead.
How has this "discouragement" of hiking manifested itself? There was indeed a motion by the then council some years back to "not encourage hiking". Not encouraging and discouraging are two different things and that council has long gone. I can tell you that hiking is very actively encouraged in the community. Not only is ongoing trail building backed by the council and public money, but there are also active and widely supported hiking groups within the village.
These generalities you keep spouting are corrosive. Let's hear some first-hand specifics.
Who says the parking lot has to be on pavement? There's a great site not far past the gate where dozens of vehicles could be accomodated.
The Lions Bay council minutes over the years sure don't agree with your contention that hiking is being encouraged by Lions Bay council.
There are in fact houses at the base of the Chief. Some on the reserve and some on the Darrel Bay side across from the gravel pit. You can check out the Google to see them for yourself. There are also houses in the Smoke Bluffs with climbs literally in their front and back yards...
You want to defend Lions Bay because you live there. I can respect that. But the respect and support you say the community of Lions Bay gives hikers is not seen in the official response of the Lions Bay apparatus of government and when you pretend it is, it's farcical. If you don't like Squamish as a contrasting example of how hikers and climbers can be treated respectfully by a municipal government we could use Bowen Island? They also have hundreds of hikers in their watersheds, the same fire conditions (or even drier) and are not restricting anyone?
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Trail running, bike hucking, fast packing, beer drinking collector of pine cones on a day pass
AKA
Dances with Trees
Forest Gnome Cabin
Canada
13090 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 8:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dru
Who says the parking lot has to be on pavement? There's a great site not far past the gate where dozens of vehicles could be accomodated.
And that is an excellent idea that has been suggested before, I'm sure. It would only be a matter of moving the gate further and plowing a row of parking spots. It makes so much sense. I remember over 25 years ago the first time I hiked the trail it occurred to me that would be a good idea. The Lions Bay solution of using the school lot kind of helps, but an expansion of parking closer to the trailhead makes much more sense. |
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Trail running, bike hucking, fast packing, beer drinking collector of pine cones on a day pass
AKA
Dances with Trees
Forest Gnome Cabin
Canada
13090 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 8:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AcesHigh
"Lions Bay Mayor Brenda Broughton told CBC News it was actually unruly hikers who caused the problems and she said all her volunteers are courteous and professional."
Someone's not being truthfull.
C'mon, Aces, you can't be suggesting our politicians might be altering the truth, now can you? |
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Hope, BC
Canada
7131 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 8:53 PM
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Mayors don't lie, do they?  |
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459 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 9:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hb
quote:
Someone's not being truthfull.
I will vouch for the NSH that we were NOT unruly. The volunteers were gleeful, gloating and hostile. The mayor was not there. I was.
Ye Chu, president of NSH, was on the CBC TV News this evening.
I think Lions Bay has managed to impose Martial Law on the trails in their area and will not give it up easily, despite the fact the current fire danger rating is LOW and no other jurisdiction in the area has deemed it necessary to close trails. The Mayor sent me an email about a fire at Murrin Lake caused by a hydro spark. Hmmmm. Murrin Lake is not in the Lions Bay watershed. Hikers do not cause hydro sparks.
Was there not a voluntary ban on hiking? Any hiking clubs that chose to violate the ban should be ashamed of themselves. Thank God for the vigilantes. I hope they were good and hostile. I have absolutely no problem with marshal law. |
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Hope, BC
Canada
7131 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 10:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by slothboy
Was there not a voluntary ban on hiking? Any hiking clubs that chose to violate the ban should be ashamed of themselves. Thank God for the vigilantes. I hope they were good and hostile. I have absolutely no problem with marshal law.
Noone violated from what I read, are you saying that the hikers are incapable of walking through a forest without starting a fire or something? Are you insinuating that the hikers are irresponsible?
If these vigilantes got in my face acting like super cops, taking my photo or smiling as if they are some sort of superior etc, I'd be sure to tell them where to go, maybe accidently give them a heart attack. I have something against people who go too far, as to act like super cops.
The hikers in the end made a good choice to move on, otherwise there would of been a bunch of stressed out panzy cry babies running to the mayors office with digital photos.
Let someone of authority take charge of this, not the residents or they could end up with a punch in the mouth. |
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Vancouver
349 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 10:17 PM
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Talking about a problem does not change anything. Sticking to own vision, you will be either used by politician or lose yourself in the 'game'.Respect is needed on both sides. We need solution, not only for couple days or seasons. It could be an alert to make us to be more aware of natural boundary.Where should we drop the line between? I guess the controversy will go on and on inside or outside of outdoor society for the reasons may not relate to hiking itself. In stead of talking and fighting, why we are not sitting down and making a list of solutions? Some brilliant ideas like: to move th gate further down as per DRU; to create a new trail as per Wulf. Hopefully, we can see new TR to show the new way up there soon. Or "Welcome" sign is showing at new trail head by locals ( I know I am dreaming).
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Langley, BC
Canada
1513 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 11:14 PM
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Aces, seriously man, leave the testosterone fueled chest pounding out of your posts and they're actually quite meaningful and make good sense. Maybe stop with the threats of physical violence and people will listen to what you have to say.
(If you have any argument about this, PM me so that it doesn't pollute this thread.) |
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Hope, BC
Canada
7131 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 11:18 PM
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It just seems like push coulda came to shove in this instance, and someone could get hurt or things could of transpired, maybe not with this group but other groups quite possibly.
Residents shouldn't have to be put in the position of protecting the area. The mayor should of had Authorities or Parks Canada doing this, and not relied on residents. It almost seems like the residents were bored and were looking to be sheriff for the day. I personally don't like strangers telling me what I can, or can not do, unless they have a badge or are of a creditable authority, and for a reason. Had someone started snapping pictures of me for no reason, theres a possibility their camera woulda wound up on the ground. Not trying to say I'm agressive, just saying thats a bit offensive on their behalf, and push comes to shove... |
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Trail running, bike hucking, fast packing, beer drinking collector of pine cones on a day pass
AKA
Dances with Trees
Forest Gnome Cabin
Canada
13090 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 11:26 PM
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I like you used the word "pansy", Aces, i think that's a CT first  |
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Hope, BC
Canada
7131 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 01:05 AM
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| It's fair to say it could of been a punch in the mouth on either side. With residents acting like super cops god knows what COULD of transpired. Sounds to me like they were overly rude, but I could just be assuming things. I've said all along, if you're going to put a blockade up or hand out fines to people for entering somewhere they shouldn't, have the proper authorities in place so things don't transpire. |
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 Best grilled cheese maker ever
Whitehorse, YUKON
Canada
2159 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 09:14 AM
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| IT'S HAVE, NOT OF! |
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n van, bc
Canada
830 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 09:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by slothboy
quote:
Originally posted by AcesHigh
quote:
Originally posted by slothboy
Was there not a voluntary ban on hiking? Any hiking clubs that chose to violate the ban should be ashamed of themselves. Thank God for the vigilantes. I hope they were good and hostile. I have absolutely no problem with marshal law.
Noone violated from what I read, are you saying that the hikers are incapable of walking through a forest without starting a fire or something? Are you insinuating that the hikers are irresponsible?
If these vigilantes got in my face acting like super cops, taking my photo or smiling as if they are some sort of superior etc, I'd be sure to tell them where to go, maybe accidently give them a heart attack. I have something against people who go too far, as to act like super cops.
The hikers in the end made a good choice to move on, otherwise there would of been a bunch of stressed out panzy cry babies running to the mayors office with digital photos.
Let someone of authority take charge of this, not the residents or they could end up with a punch in the mouth.
People who violated the ban are bad people. I don't care what the vigilantes do with them.
The Canadian gov't is foreign controlled working for foreign interests. They can go to hell.
*cough cough * Psycho * Cough Cough * Conspiracy theories * cough cough * too much american tv. |
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207 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 09:50 AM
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quote:
Who says the parking lot has to be on pavement? There's a great site not far past the gate where dozens of vehicles could be accomodated.
The Lions Bay council minutes over the years sure don't agree with your contention that hiking is being encouraged by Lions Bay council.
I know the site you mean. It would accommodate about a dozen vehicles and on a summer Sunday the overflow from the first lot runs to 30 or more. That's why the school lot was set aside. I recognize that adds an hour round trip to the hike but what are we out there for? Many, many times I've hiked from my house up the four peaks behind us and I live below the highway. There's an increasing number of hikers using the shuttle bus, which I'm happy to see.
I'm trying not to be manoeuvred into defending everything our council does, past and present. In common with all politicians, sooner or later they develop attitudes and habits that don't stand scrutiny. But I can tell you that regardless of what your read in the minutes, many of the tools we use for trail maintenance are funded by the village. The trail-building group was also singled (grouped?) out for praise in a recent edition of the local newsletter.
Let's just put these Squamish comparisons to bed once and for all. Squamish has lost its logging, its railway workshops, its pulp mill, and its port is hanging by a thread. It has a sizeable infrastructure of businesses, hotels, restaurants,shops and schools to support. What's left? Tourism. It is advertising itself as an outdoor recreation mecca similar to Canmore or Banff and with good reason. World class windsurfing, kayaking, rock-climbing, mountain biking, sight-seeing. The last thing it wants is to become a dormitory for Vancouver and a place people pass through en route for Whistler. Why do you think it lobbied for traffic lights all along the highway instead of clover-leafs? Because it doesn't want potential business passing by. Catering to outdoors people in Squamish isn't altruism, it's business, money.
Lions Bay, on the other hand, tried to be a stand-alone community (and still is legally) but de facto it's a dormitory. Aside from real estate there are only three publicly-accessible businesses in the community: the store, the art shop and the marina. What these businesses get out of the hikers that pass through is minimal. Most hikers get out of their car, do their hike, get back in and go back to Vancouver. In contrast with Squamish, they're a cost to the community not a source of revenue. Which is no excuse for discourtesy but it goes a long way towards explaining why Squamish and Lions Bay have different outlooks. When the Royal Hudson was stopped, there was a hue and cry from businesses in Squamish, backed by the council. A revenue source had vanished. There was regret in Lions Bay at the demise of the Hudson, no more. It looks good but doesn't bring anything to the village. The highway is just a connection, and an increasingly noisy and dangerous one, not a revenue source. Hence the clover leafs instead of traffic lights. Does this all sound too cold and sordid to CTers? No doubt, but for good or ill it's how life works.
At this point I can't debate the Bowen Island comparison with you except to point out that (a) once again, I smell money at the centre of Bowen Island's motives. All those businesses around Snug Cove don't survive on local custom. They want tourist traffic. (b)I'm curious as to the exact source of Bowen Island's water. I know on Gambier, most of it comes from individual wells. The issue in Lions Bay is that the main Lions trail actually crosses our water supply. It was hoped that the Marcel Andrie bridge would keep people out of the creek itself, but I have my doubts. People coming down from the Lions on a hot day are going to be tempted to go down to the creek. Before the bridge went in I used to see people in there with their dogs. (c) Hiking traffic up Mount Gardiner is a far cry from that up the Lions/Brunswick/Harvey/Unnecessary. Which, going back to my earlier posts, is the core of the issue here. |
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3022 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 11:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by howes hound
quote:
Managing and restricting are two entirely different things. The construction of a new parking lot and campground at the base of the Chief by BC Parks several years ago was "managing" but not "restricting" - the size of the campground was increased and the parking approximately doubled. This is a case where an administrative body recognized that user growth was occurring and planned for it by expanding facilities.
The Lions Bay government position has been to prohibit parking and discourage as much hiking as they can in the hope that hikers would go away. This is not a responsible management position - it is NIMBYism.
What specifically is causing you grief and what's your proposed solution? You cannot compare the situation at the top of Lions Bay with parking at the Chief. There have been houses all along Sunset Drive for the past 30 years and at that time parking was more than adequate for the hiking demand. Where are the houses at the foot of the Chief? Are you proposing a multi-storey parking lot on Sunset or expropriation of private property to build a car park? Because there's no other way of accommodating extra vehicles at the trailhead.
How has this "discouragement" of hiking manifested itself? There was indeed a motion by the then council some years back to "not encourage hiking". Not encouraging and discouraging are two different things and that council has long gone. I can tell you that hiking is very actively encouraged in the community. Not only is ongoing trail building backed by the council and public money, but there are also active and widely supported hiking groups within the village.
These generalities you keep spouting are corrosive. Let's hear some first-hand specifics.
... "not encouraging > to discouraging" is like a stepping stone among entrenched residents,
a form of incitement...
I have been a victim a number of times of slashed tires by residents { on van. isle } for walking and
launching canoe on public domain, and once had my vehicle towed on unmarked lane in PoCo.
Leaves an unhappy live and learn impression. |
Edited by - cambium on 08/12/2009 11:33 AM |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
2666 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 11:55 AM
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Thank you for being reasonable Howes Hound  . As a transit hiker, access to the peaks around Lions Bay is an issue near and dear to me. I would like to see the trails protected; I would hate to lose access to this beautiful area for any reason. I think the people of Lions Bay have a right to clean drinking water too. I don't know what the answer is. A fence around the creek? Better signage around the creek? (the only sign I remember refers to giardia)
I've received dirty looks from locals of many small communities around Vancouver, as if to say, "Tourist! Why are you invading my space?" I've always wondered how those people would feel if vigilantes living in Vancouver stood on the Lions Gate bridge and prevented them from shopping or going to work in Vancouver? Those of us living in the urban environment have a need for fresh air and exercise, just as those living in smaller outlying communities have a need for the variety and opportunities offered by proximity to a big urban centre. |
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Port Moody, BC
Canada
564 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 12:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mad owl woman
Those of us living in the urban environment have a need for fresh air and exercise, just as those living in smaller outlying communities have a need for the variety and opportunities offered by proximity to a big urban centre.
Exactly my thoughts. If they want to be hard like this, then why not be hard in return? Lets close access to Vancouver for them, or maybe even kick them out of Canada and let them have their own little country with their prominent 3-business economy. Who will win in the end? |
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Topic |
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Lions Bay trail access was CLOSED - now it's OPEN
