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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1117 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2008 : 7:49 PM
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Good stuff Dru,that about sums it up.All I can add is until a person is certain of their competence and confidence on steep snow,stay off it.Although the dangers are not as apparent as some other aspects of climbing,it is still one of the most hazardous things in mountaineering.
Good to see some intelligent discussion here,as opposed to vitriolic rantings about snowmobiles that never change anyones mind one way or the other. |
Edited by - tedoliver on 01/28/2008 7:50 PM |
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chinese hot-pot gourmand, costco pirate, 103 hikes completin', picture postin', commander of our newest canadian trekkers
Vancouver, BC
Canada
1740 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 09:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tedoliver
.........All I can add is until a person is certain of their competence and confidence on steep snow........
quote:
Originally posted by Dru
.........
Crampons and ice axe won't do much good if you don't know how to use them. Practice self arrest, etc. in a controlled environment before venturing into an area where you may be required to use them.......
I can’t agree you more. I'd like to copy/paste two old alpine accident reports here from matt gunn's website as a friendly reminder.
http://cairnpublishing.com/accidents/accidents.htm?f=7
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quote:
Mount Niobe - Fall and injury while glissading
Glissading on steep snow sloeps can quickly lead to a loss of control. This person ran into a rock after falling during a glissade and sustained injuries. IT is important to have an ice axe and to know how to use it.
http://alpineclub-edm.org/accidents/accident.asp?id=1335
Description: On July 27, 1963, T.S. (20) a prospective member of the Alpine Club of Canada, was one of a party of 12 to glissade a steep but smooth and even snow slope on a small glacier. Elevation was about 5,000 feet. He had little snow experience and when his turn came to go down unroped, was highly nervous. He lost his balance, turned over forwards and sideways and smashed his kneecap on a small rock estimated to be 15 feet out of the vertical fall line. He was carried to Lake Lovely Water on a stretcher of small trees and flown out from the ACC cabin the next day by a Royal Canadian Air Force Helicopter
Analysis: (Shwabe) "Had the leader known T.S. better, he would have descended with him roped up all the way down the glacier"
Rescue Mode: party
Source: Trip leader, Nick Shwabe
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Mount Niobe - serious injury during self arrest practice
This individual was practicing self arrest with an ice axe and ended up tearing a hole in his abdomen.
http://alpineclub-edm.org/accidents/accident.asp?id=611
Description: On September 20, 1970 , N.E. (23) and 12 others were practicing ice axe arrests on hard snow. The immediate slope was steep but the run out was ample. It was chosen specifically to practice arrest. Everyone was doing simple arrests, but N.E. was ambitious and eager and tried a more advanced arrest described in Freedom of the Hills (on the back with the head downhill). While flipping over he lost control and dropped his axe, the axe was momentarily vertical and at that moment he fell and pierced his side. P.S. went up to him and asked if he was okay. He said 'yes', but when P.S. raised his sweater he saw a great gaping hole in his right upper abdomen. The group laid him out on an ensolite pad as there was no way to move him and covered him with jackets. He was in great pain due to the bile and blood released into his abdominal cavity , so he was given a Darvon compound and 0.5 of a grain of codeine which was repeated later in the day. The accident occurred at about 1000 at about 5,000 feet above the nearest road and about 7 miles from it. That distance was covered by members of the party in about one and a half hours to get help. The patient was evacuated by helicopter by about 1500. He was operated on within an hour of arriving in the hospital and spent approximately three weeks in the hospital recovering. He was almost completely recovered by December.
Analysis: One should gradually develop competence in the various ice axe arrest techniques, and learn to walk before one runs!
Rescue Mode: helicopter
btw: IMO, tubular frame snowshoes are not reasonable backcountry snowshoes because of their poor traction. |
Edited by - mazeGirl on 01/29/2008 09:34 AM |
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Moxie scambler of pinnacles, tireless leader haunting the CDN/US border climbing everything in sight
Burnaby, BC
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 10:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mazeGirl
btw: IMO, tubular frame snowshoes are not reasonable backcountry snowshoes because of their poor traction they are not skis.
Fixed! 
Kidding, of course. But I would disagree with you. Tubular frame snowshoes can be fine - it just depends on the snow.
PB
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Missing the Rockies.
263 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 10:49 AM
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| I don't believe that there is a substantive difference between the two MSR models. In fact, all snow shoes suck pretty much equally for the kind of terrain being talked about here. I can't fathom why anyone would tackle semi-technical terrain in snowshoes… but then again I also find it difficult to understand why crampons would be needed on the 1st pump unless you're climbing it from an irregular route. |
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 | Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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 Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 11:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mel_Lowe
I don't believe that there is a substantive difference between the two MSR models.
Try them and change your mind. |
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chinese hot-pot gourmand, costco pirate, 103 hikes completin', picture postin', commander of our newest canadian trekkers
Vancouver, BC
Canada
1740 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 12:30 PM
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I've been organizing snowshoeing trips almost every weekend for past 3 year(~half year per year). From my experience, tubular frame snowshoes are only suited for more powder flotation, and flatter terrain, I've seen so many tubular frame snowshoes users had trouble with harsh backcountry terrain.
I don't doubt that a very strong snowshoer who has good balance might be able to use tubular frame snowshoes on hard pack snow without problems. |
Edited by - mazeGirl on 01/29/2008 12:31 PM |
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Mallorca
508 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 12:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dru
3) out of control sliding/butt glissades should be avoided at all costs when you have snowshoes on your feet due to
*potential leverage of snowshoe catching on something resulting in torn or broken ligaments/ankle/leg
I learnt it the hard way  |
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Outward Bound author of the Seinfeld Thread, who builds his own snowshoes
Troy, MT
USA
3125 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 1:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mel_Lowe
I don't believe that there is a substantive difference between the two MSR models. In fact, all snow shoes suck pretty much equally for the kind of terrain being talked about here. I can't fathom why anyone would tackle semi-technical terrain in snowshoes… but then again I also find it difficult to understand why crampons would be needed on the 1st pump unless you're climbing it from an irregular route.
then I doubt you've hiked up when it is really icy, like it was before this recent snowfall. and what dru said about the 2 kinds. just look at the designs. |
Edited by - Farmer on 01/29/2008 1:15 PM |
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Missing the Rockies.
263 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 1:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dru
quote:
Originally posted by Mel_Lowe
I don't believe that there is a substantive difference between the two MSR models.
Try them and change your mind.
I own current model Lightenings and older tubular model Atlas shoes. I have used the Denali's (not the Ascents) in the past. Unless we compare them back to back on the same terrain in the same conditions I don't know of what value subjective observation is worth. Logically, the Denalli's without flotation tails would function better than the Lightenings on ice due to an increased concentration of force on the traction devices by virtue of less area. I don't know if that gets us to an appreciable difference in real world performance under the conditions we are talking about with floatation being equivalent. My point is that snow shoes, of any make, suck for anything but meandering on trails. The difference between MSR models, if any, is not significant enough to really matter. |
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Trail running, bike hucking, fast packing, beer drinking collector of pine cones on a day pass
AKA
Dances with Trees
Forest Gnome Cabin
Canada
13057 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 1:28 PM
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The art of cutting steps is often not learned by a lot of people in the current snowshoe generation. On a steep slope secure footing cannot be more important, so learn how to cut steps and practice it as often as your self arrests, IMO. Also, if you need to stop on a steep traverse and you can get on the uphill side of a tree, do that as well.
I trust my Denalis but I take them off when chances are better without them, they are the best shoes out there, but I like my crampons and ice axe even more ! |
Edited by - mick range on 01/29/2008 1:38 PM |
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Missing the Rockies.
263 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 1:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Farmer
quote:
Originally posted by Mel_Lowe
I don't believe that there is a substantive difference between the two MSR models. In fact, all snow shoes suck pretty much equally for the kind of terrain being talked about here. I can't fathom why anyone would tackle semi-technical terrain in snowshoes… but then again I also find it difficult to understand why crampons would be needed on the 1st pump unless you're climbing it from an irregular route.
then I doubt you've hiked up when it is really icy, like it was before this recent snowfall. and what dru said about the 2 kinds. just look at the designs.
The designs, hampered by the simple fact that they are snowshoes, suck equally for this, the difference in negligible, see my post above. I have climbed to the first pump direct without crampons in shnice conditions. Circumnavigating the first pump counter clockwise from the trail back in an easterly direction to the summit is pretty tame in "all but the most savage conditions" if the other day qualifies as the "most savage" then so be it. |
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
1117 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 4:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mick range
The art of cutting steps is often not learned by a lot of people in the current snowshoe generation. On a steep slope secure footing cannot be more important, so learn how to cut steps and practice it as often as your self arrests, IMO. Also, if you need to stop on a steep traverse and you can get on the uphill side of a tree, do that as well.
I trust my Denalis but I take them off when chances are better without them, they are the best shoes out there, but I like my crampons and ice axe even more !
That pretty much says it all.Snow shoes shortcomings become even more apparent on big mountains with their steep exposed terrain and lack of runouts.Skis are a little better on traverses,but only marginally so.I've been on trips where skiers refuse to take their skis off for whatever reason.(Bravado,stubborness,combined with the fact that they've dropped 2000 bananas on gear).If you feel uncomfortable,take them off!The only thing that surprises me is,with the astounding growth of snow shoeing there hasn't been more accidents.When Sherpas first came out in the earlys 80's,there was about 4 snow shoers on the NS and 3 of them were my friends.
Mel Lowe- Excellent comments! |
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Peak bagging, bushwhacking, zamboni driving, snowshoeing, self portrait artist, and speed demon who loves to hang out on Mt. Seymour
4000 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 5:23 PM
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quote:
My point is that snow shoes, of any make, suck for anything but meandering on trails. The difference between MSR models, if any, is not significant enough to really matter.
Mel Lowe, not sure what you mean by meandering but I take it that you mean if you can't see a bamboo pole in a Provincial Park then you shouldn't be out there in snowshoes. That's a load of BS.
I have MSR Denalis and they've got me up all sorts of steep terrain as well as down. Brunswick, McGuire NW Ridge, Klesilkwa to summit col, Harvey, Runner, Elsay to name a few. I've gone up in snowshoes and down in crampons before, and I've done stuff in snowshoes that in retrospect I shouldn't have (Peak 5400 summit area, southface of Brunswick descent. Neither I found that difficult in hard pack).
The conditions play a big part in what gear to wear as well as a persons ability. Last week, we knew of the hard pack on Seymour so we took crampons and iceaxe. Preparation is key out there in variable conditions. Come prepared. |
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Trail running, bike hucking, fast packing, beer drinking collector of pine cones on a day pass
AKA
Dances with Trees
Forest Gnome Cabin
Canada
13057 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 5:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by simonc
The conditions play a big part in what gear to wear as well as a persons ability. Last week, we knew of the hard pack on Seymour so we took crampons and iceaxe. Preparation is key out there in variable conditions. Come prepared.
Well said
Yep, we've been on a few trips where we've brought snowshoes, or crampons but never used them. Pack weight builds quad power,lol, even if it turns out you don't end up using the gear  |
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Trail running, bike hucking, fast packing, beer drinking collector of pine cones on a day pass
AKA
Dances with Trees
Forest Gnome Cabin
Canada
13057 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 5:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tedoliver
When Sherpas first came out in the earlys 80's,there was about 4 snow shoers on the NS and 3 of them were my friends.
Hard to imagine that,Ted, considering the number of people on snowshoes today, but I can recall that era too. Back in that day I tried to wait for harder snowpack and did most all my trips on crampons with my ice axe( one of the somewhat longer handled units).I only used poles for skiing, (bought my first pair of trekking poles 3 years ago) and on powder days I'd go skiing instead if I didn't feel like postholing |
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Missing the Rockies.
263 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 6:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by simonc
quote:
My point is that snow shoes, of any make, suck for anything but meandering on trails. The difference between MSR models, if any, is not significant enough to really matter.
Mel Lowe, not sure what you mean by meandering but I take it that you mean if you can't see a bamboo pole in a Provincial Park then you shouldn't be out there in snowshoes. That's a load of BS.
I have MSR Denalis and they've got me up all sorts of steep terrain as well as down. Brunswick, McGuire NW Ridge, Klesilkwa to summit col, Harvey, Runner, Elsay to name a few. I've gone up in snowshoes and down in crampons before, and I've done stuff in snowshoes that in retrospect I shouldn't have (Peak 5400 summit area, southface of Brunswick descent. Neither I found that difficult in hard pack).
The conditions play a big part in what gear to wear as well as a persons ability. Last week, we knew of the hard pack on Seymour so we took crampons and iceaxe. Preparation is key out there in variable conditions. Come prepared.
Nope, when I say meandering on a trail I mean class 1 to easy class 2 terrain, anything else is not gonna work too well with snowshoes. Everything is variable and subjective. Your examples pretty much fit the easy class 2 or less description although there are probably some steps that were sketchy in snow shoes.
Take your Needle trip, you knew when the shoes had to come off and when to pull out the cord on that last step off the ridge to the trail.
Let's just face facts, unless you are either (a) really lucky or (2) a mutant, snow snowshoes won't work very well in semi-technical terrain. I am agreeing (by and large) with the original post and your assertion that: "reparation is key out there in variable conditions. Come prepared" Heck I am the guy that always carries at least: instep crampons, an alpine axe, 20m of 8mm dynamic rope, double slings, some cordalette and a locking biner on every winter trip…. Yes, many times up Seymour as well.
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| Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 6:41 PM
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In addition to trying Lightnings and Denalis under the same conditions before you comment on how they work the same, you should also climb Runner and Mcguire NW Ridge in winter with simonc before you proudly proclaim they are Class 1 to 2  |
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Trail running, bike hucking, fast packing, beer drinking collector of pine cones on a day pass
AKA
Dances with Trees
Forest Gnome Cabin
Canada
13057 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 6:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dru
In addition to trying Lightnings and Denalis under the same conditions before you comment on how they work the same, you should also climb Runner and Mcguire NW Ridge in winter with simonc before you proudly proclaim they are Class 1 to 2
I'd also add ....Remember, the ability of the person is relevant. Simon is highly skilled on snowshoes and able to tackle terrain on his Denalis the average person shouldn't be anywhere near. So in other words know your own skillset... |
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Popkum, BC
Canada
5887 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 7:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mazeGirl
btw: IMO, tubular frame snowshoes are not reasonable backcountry snowshoes because of their poor traction.
I'd have to agree with mazeGirl here, if you're going up or down hill tubular frame snowshoes suck! I'm hoping this discussion saves injury and $$. |
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Missing the Rockies.
263 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 8:40 PM
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| double post |
Edited by - Mel_Lowe on 01/29/2008 8:58 PM |
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using snowshoes on icy or hard-pack snow slopes
