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 Satirical photoshop junkie who frolics in the mountains of the Chilliwack River Valley
Chilliwack, BC
Canada
6907 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 8:13 PM
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| On our last overnighter, our tent was pretty much buried overnight by a heavy snowfall. No big deal for the tent as it could take it, but such a snowfall pretty much cut off ventilation from outside. There were two of us in a smallish two person 4 season tent with a candle lantern burning, which led me to muse if high Carbon Dioxide levels would become an issue in such circumstances. Any thoughts? |
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Manitoba's misadventurin' bushwhackin', dog sloggin', dehydratin', beer drinkin' biggie - who's eager to peak bag Mt Currie in a dress
Squamish
5040 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 8:28 PM
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Carbon Monoxide?
I'd say yes, it could. I remember one story of a group of campers that left their heater on in their trailer, and the whole family of four perished.
After hearing that I always crack a window, or a tent door, just a little. |
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 | Dru
Mountain Grammar Police
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Sardonic sandbagging scoundrel, Cascade Climbers lobotomized spraymeister, space blanket flyer, new millennium vulgarian betaboy and friend to all squids
Climbing, a mountain
Canada
∞ Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 8:43 PM
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Carbon Monoxide - probably not. More likely with a stove or something else burning gas.
Carbon Dioxide - possibly yes. You use oxygen up breathing, as does the candle burning and both respiration and combustion generate CO2. If the oxygen level gets low and the CO2 level gets high simultaneously (ie no air flow) you could be in trouble.
This is why you sould get up to shovel your tent out if it starts to get buried.
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Night owl posting,Subie driving, backpacking Dad who is perpetually trying to catch up to his kids on the trail.
Vancouver, BC
Canada
3053 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 01:13 AM
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And if you were eating freeze dried foods, there is always the methane issue ...
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"Aging ... it beats the alternative" |
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74 Posts |
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Vancouver
1808 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 5:50 PM
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You should notice shortness of breath from the lack of oxygen - like being at high altitude. Or like burying your head in your sleeping bag. My impression and experience is that if this happens while you're asleep, you'll wake up breathing hard. People generally don't die sleeping in their oxygen-deprived tents on 8000m peaks. Or suffocate in their sleeping bags.
Snow, especially large areas of fresh snow like on a tent, is relatively gas-permeable. Probably more so than the tent fabric itself. However tent fabric coated with water/condensation will block the exchange of air. The Kelty warnings leave the impression they must have lost a big lawsuit. It's worth being aware of this issue, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it.
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Meet you at DYE-II? |
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Outdoors addicted flyfishing, skiing, snowshoeing, hiking car crooner and resident motormouth
Da'Wack, BC
Canada
5372 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 6:02 PM
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Heheh, I didn't notice anything that overly concerned me but BG mentioned it a few times and I know it was on his mind.
While the tent was buried we did have vents open in the ceiling of the inner wall and both the entranceways. (I notice very little condesation in the Alpenlite.)
Interesting about fresh snow being gas permiable and I guess it makes sense when you consider it's construction on a microscopic level. |
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 adventure seeking, peak-bagging, high-enduring, strong and silent forest gnome
N49°09', W122°47'
Canada
3819 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 6:42 PM
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I suppose it depends how much oxygen you're consuming in the tent. I know that newlyweds often consume holy-lord-thunderin-jesus amounts of o2, but after being married a while you'll probably have enough in there to last a lifetime  |
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881 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 8:37 PM
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| Keep an eye on your candle lantern.If it starts to dim or goes out due to lack of oxygen,it's time to make a vent. |
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Richmond, BC
Canada
2440 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 9:24 PM
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Keeping an eye on the candle is great idea. It would basically be your canary in the coal mine scenario. Now on the issue of Co and Co2 levels in tents, I recall spending a night in a tent on the coast (Nootka Sound to be precise) with a kerosene heater keeping four of us warm and dry. The last thing I remember was my friend trying to drag us out of the tent (which was ventilated)as he awoke with a serious headache and noticed we were all restless and our palour was quite pink. I have to say that it was the worst headache I have ever had. Co or Co2. Anybody want to guess or was it a combination of both?
Paul |
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Outdoors addicted flyfishing, skiing, snowshoeing, hiking car crooner and resident motormouth
Da'Wack, BC
Canada
5372 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 11:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbo
I suppose it depends how much oxygen you're consuming in the tent. I know that newlyweds often consume holy-lord-thunderin-jesus amounts of o2, but after being married a while you'll probably have enough in there to last a lifetime
 <-------Jimbo
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Trail running, bike hucking, fast packing, beer drinking collector of pine cones on a day pass
AKA
Dances with Trees
Forest Gnome Cabin
Canada
13035 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 11:28 PM
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And do gnomes use proportionately less oxygen, Jimbo? |
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74 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 06:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sgRant
People generally don't die sleeping in their oxygen-deprived tents on 8000m peaks. Or suffocate in their sleeping bags.
This example involved a huge snowfall, but sadly demonstrates that suffocating inside your snow-covered tent is quite possible:
http://www.losalamos.org/climb/davidson.html
We happen to be acquainted with another member of their climbing party. He reported that the couple who died were found in natural positions in their bags -- it didn't appear that they ever woke up or struggled in any way when the tent collapsed. Rescuers thought they had likely suffocated or were unconscious prior to the actual collapse.
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D. Winger
www.Colorado-for-Free.com
www.JoshuaTreeTrad.com
www.GreatSandDunes.info
www.HighpointAdventures.com |
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Fleece thong wearin, Buntzen Lurkin, mystic poet mountain man and international spokesman of the friends of the white squirrel society
Port Moody, B.C.
Canada
5900 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 08:28 AM
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You could always get a Canary. Oh wait now we are back to the methane thing again
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A little song, a little dance.
A little seltzer down your pants!
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adventure seeking, peak-bagging, high-enduring, strong and silent forest gnome
N49°09', W122°47'
Canada
3819 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 08:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by exscape
<-------Jimbo
DOH! Sorry - couldn't resist. 
quote:
Originally posted by mick range
And do gnomes use proportionately less oxygen, Jimbo?
Absolutely, Mick - in fact I'm trying to give it up altogether |
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Trail running, bike hucking, fast packing, beer drinking collector of pine cones on a day pass
AKA
Dances with Trees
Forest Gnome Cabin
Canada
13035 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 4:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbo
quote:
Originally posted by mick range
And do gnomes use proportionately less oxygen, Jimbo?
Absolutely, Mick - in fact I'm trying to give it up altogether
I might have gnown |
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148 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2005 : 10:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dirt Diggler
Keep an eye on your candle lantern.If it starts to dim or goes out due to lack of oxygen,it's time to make a vent.
This is essential when you learn to dig a snow cave. Itshould always be at least 1 lower air inlet, and one upper outlet, in the cave. This may be made by using the ski pole. If you are many people in the cave you may need to increase the vent, but you do not want to big heat loss. The optimum temperature inside the snow cave may be 2-5 deg C. This will again make a demand for draining of condence and melting snow.
dsk
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________________
Homepage: http://www.home.no/dsk/
Favourite link: http://www.spiritburner.com |
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| Paulo
Intermediate Member
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Vancouver, BC
Canada
768 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2005 : 03:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by winger
http://www.losalamos.org/climb/davidson.html
I've always slept with my feet at the door (3-season camping). Now that I'm getting into 4th-season camping it's time to change that habit. In your example it sounds like it would not have made a difference, i.e. saved them from suffocation  . It certainly makes sense to sleep with your face nearest the tent door in situations where heavy snowfall could cut off your air vents and/or collapse your tent. Thanks for posting that story... got me thinking about safer tenting . |
Edited by - Paulo on 12/11/2005 03:28 AM |
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lethbridge, ab
Canada
26 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2007 : 12:24 PM
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| there are small o2 deffeciency and co2 alarms that take up no space and no weight on the market, i dont have a link for you, but they do exist, they are made the same as a low o2 shutoff inside a small tent heater or catalyst heater. |
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North Vancouver, BC
Canada
679 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2007 : 1:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pmicheals
Keeping an eye on the candle is great idea. It would basically be your canary in the coal mine scenario. Now on the issue of Co and Co2 levels in tents, I recall spending a night in a tent on the coast (Nootka Sound to be precise) with a kerosene heater keeping four of us warm and dry. The last thing I remember was my friend trying to drag us out of the tent (which was ventilated)as he awoke with a serious headache and noticed we were all restless and our palour was quite pink. I have to say that it was the worst headache I have ever had. Co or Co2. Anybody want to guess or was it a combination of both?
Paul
CO for sure
The effect of CO2 is that the fraction of CO2 in the air you breath increases while the fraction of O2 is reduced (the "amount" of a gas in a mix is called partial pressure).
You lungs can only extract enough O2 with a certain partial pressure. To much CO2 = not enough O2 = shortage of breath and finally death.. But if you are awake, you will notice.
CO is far trickier, it binds I think a thousand times better to hemoglobine that O2. So you only need relatively little CO to cause a huge drop in O2 transported by the blood
Hemoglobine with O2 bound to it will make you appear red (healthy)
Hemglobine without O2 bound to it will make you apprear blue
Hemoglobine with CO bound to it will make you apprear pink
If you remove the CO from the air you inhale, the CO will slowly be replaced with O2 and you will recover. |
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Cloverdale
183 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2007 : 1:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pmicheals
Keeping an eye on the candle is great idea. It would basically be your canary in the coal mine scenario. Now on the issue of Co and Co2 levels in tents, I recall spending a night in a tent on the coast (Nootka Sound to be precise) with a kerosene heater keeping four of us warm and dry. The last thing I remember was my friend trying to drag us out of the tent (which was ventilated)as he awoke with a serious headache and noticed we were all restless and our palour was quite pink. I have to say that it was the worst headache I have ever had. Co or Co2. Anybody want to guess or was it a combination of both?
Paul
Headache and bright pink flushed face is Carbon Monoxide poisoning.
ham |
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CO2 levels in tents
